Two Thoughts on World Wars
I am not a historian (yes, I know it’s ‘an’ historian but it really does sound pretentious) or a patriot, so I am not going to go on about this, but there are two things that bug the living shit out of me when wars are mentioned, and World Wars in particular. I think these points need to be made because they address the two most irritating misconceptions I tend to find people have about the World Wars, in particular WW2. The songs are really, really fitting too so please don’t just pop them on. Actually listen.
1: Surrender Monkeys
I hear this said about the French all the time by both Brits and Americans and it really annoys me. Germany invaded and overran France in WW2 and their advance ground to a halt there in WW1. In fact in WW1 the extent of the slaughter was unprecedented in the world, and the battles in Northern France are legendary for their brutality and loss of life.
We have a house in France, and in every village there is a war memorial. On every war memorial is a list of names. The list is so long, for both world wars, that it beggars belief the town could have been even half that big in the first place. In most cases families lose numerous men. Over the course of both wars which were, let’s not forget, only twenty years apart, many families suffered double figure losses, and this is in every single tiny little village for miles and miles around.
The UK and the US have no idea what it is like to resist an actual invading army – the Spanish Armada in 1588 is, I believe, the last time Britain has come even close – so we quite simply have no right to judge what we do not understand. Can you imagine German officers in your home town? Can you imagine almost every single man between the age of about 17 and 45 being killed defending his home – literally too, none of this ‘defending our country against Tourism’ bullshit? No you bloody can’t, so if you want to talk Surrender Monkeys do it well the fuck out of my earshot because you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Leonard Cohen – The Partisan Lyrics (gut-wrenching)
The Men They Couldn’t Hang – The Green Fields of France Lyrics
2: We saved your goddam asses in the Second World War
You think so do you? Well, I am not about to deny that the Americans played a hugely important role in the Second World War because that would be stupid. But you want to know who ‘saved everyone’s asses’? Well, do you remember what happened to the Grande Armee de la Republique in 1812? What happened to the Germans in the First World War? The Nazis in WW2? I’ll tell you what, they all stupidly invaded Russia and their armies were slowly ground into submission in one long, horrific war of attrition after another.
How many Americans died in WW2? About half a million. British? Roughly the same. It sounds a lot doesn’t it. Well it’s peanuts – the Greeks lost a similar number. If you want to know who ‘saved our asses’ in WW2 consider that current estimates put Russian casualties of that war at about 26 million, split roughly in half between civilian and military deaths. Hitler was stupid enough to invade Russia before he’d polished off Britain and his army was ground down in one of the hardest, bitterest and most miserable campaigns imaginable. Over a third of all deaths in the Second World War were Russians. That’s who saved our asses in WW2.*
Funnily enough, the second on the casualty list? China, with 20 million, roughly 16 million of whom were civillians. Browsing that list I also notice that the Poles lost 20% of their population. Russia lost 13.4%. America lost 0.32% and Britain less than 1%. Sobering, isn’t it.
Billy Bragg – Think Again Lyrics
The Waterboys – Red Army Blues Lyrics
*Dear proper historians – no, I am not claiming it was that simple, just making a single, isolated point. And yes, I do know there was a war in the Pacific as well, but that’s a whole different story.
bravo, old chap. I’m enjoying your rants as much as your fine musical critique. just wish I had a good enough memory to rhhyme off facts like that in pub-based debates.
hear hear. as Brian says, your rants are as good as the music. Some people allow their understanding of history to be clouded by crappy patriotism and a completely false idea of what happened. Whether we blame parents, teachers (Ed shoots himself in the foot!) or what, I don’t know.
Fair comment as regards the Soviet people, who were slaughtered in their millions. But don’t give credit to their craven, despotic leaders, who would happily have watched every one of their supposed allies be crushed by the Nazis, had Hitler not been so stupid as to break the non-aggression pact.
How many Russian deaths were nothing to do with the Germans, and were merely a result of corruption and incompetence at the top?
That Waterboy’s song is fucking beautiful!
The thing is, both the US and the UK performed superlative feats of courage and determination in both world wars, but I am flabberghasted when I read those statistics. 26 million dead? That’s beyond comprehension.
And Jon has a very fair point as well. ‘Comrade Stalin’ is one of the most world class genocidal lunatics the world has ever produced – I give him no credit whatsoever. Many Russian deaths were certainly caused by the basic non-functionality of the Soviet state.
Jon is also quite right to mention that the floundering in Russia was entirely to do with the Germans’ sheer stupidity in breaking the non-aggression pact before they’d finished off Britain.
But bungling psychotic leaders and foolish German tactical decisions cannot, I don’t think, account for the toll the Russian people had to suffer to absorb the brunt of the German army. 26 million is an unimaginable number of deaths to sustain.
And yes, Ed, mostly I blame the teachers
This was not a rant. It was a well-argued and poignant piece of prose that would not have been out of place in a broadsheet.
And the accompanying music was heart-rendingly gorgeous.
I am not an historian (professionally) either, but I did study history in college – it was my “major” subject – and I am an avid “historian” of World War One. I agree with your overall view of WW2 – though I do wonder about the Russian body-count that you submitted -, but I have to question your view on the importance of the Russian front in WW1. Yes, it was a PART of the overall picture in regards to the strain on the manpower/resources of the Central Powers, but Russia was put out of the war and ceeded a fair chunck of territiory – however temporarily. In my reading of the events of WW1, your comments about the unprecidented carnage of the western front – along with the inferior resources and logistic infrastructure of the Central Powers, is what really spelled their doom.
Just my opinion, for whatever it may be worth
Oh definitely, Andy. I wasn’t trying to comment on WW1 at all really, because I don’t know anything like enough about it, apart from talking about the strain on the French population that people never seem to take into account when being condescending about their courage.
If one thing amazes me about the First World War it is the horror of the thing being sufficient to see it described as ‘the war to end all war’, and yet we hear next to nothing about the Spanish Influenza pandemic that occurred at about the same time and killed, according to the estimates I have read, slightly more people. It’s only really been mentioned, and then only as a minor aside, in recent years since the threat of H5N1 surfaced.
Applause for the rant, Dearest Toad. Of course the real reason the French have been villified in the US of late was their refusal to fall into line behind Dubya and pour treasure and lives down the Iraqi drain…
I think your main point is well taken: many of us have no real concept –either personal of through family/national memory– of what true war is. What it means to be forced from your home. What it is like not to be able to walk through field because of landmines. How it feels to be locked in your house for fear of being abducted or shot.
My mother grew up in Poland during the Second World War, and to this day the experience has profoundly shaped her worldview and personality.
*Applause*
On point two we can also always remind the American war effort of how hard they tried not to be involved either in WW1 (1917-1918) or WW2 (1941-45) and how the refusal to participate in the League of Nations after the first war did nothing to help develop internatonal stability and security in the longer term.
Well you’re right, Crash, but we Brits can’t be too smug. I get the impression, although I’m open to correction, that there are two main reasons Hitler didn’t really invade Britain. Firstly, he was a bit nervous of doing so. But secondly, and really not at all to our credit, I don’t think he thought of Britain as a natural enemy as there were an awful lot of Nazi sympathisers in the UK, so he reckoned that if he left us alone then there was a good chance of us responding in kind.
Either way, I was trying to avoid specific American-bashing or Brit-bashing because I think the Russian casualty figures pretty much speak for themselves.
Yes, very true.
Don’t forget the Burmese who cut the Japanese to shreds, but don’t have a great literary tradition so no one knows about it. The Japanese:Burmese casualties were about 7:1 and the Burmese had knives. No really. They stopped the Japanese advance before they could hit the resources of India and our bases there. Not that you’d know.
I think that this misguided notion of the French being surrender monkeys (much the same as the Italians of course) is exactly that – a result of misguiding. The stereotypes have always existed and continue to exist in certain quarters, but I also believe that the enlightened among us (as shown by the quality of support amongst the blog community in reply to the post) are quite aware that the French people were brave and courageous in front of a superior military power. The bravery shown by ‘The Resistance’ is, and always has been, legendary. I further believe that it is the government who place too much emphasis on the history of the British, who are to blame. Perhaps the National Curriculum needs to address the historical stereotypes in order to make the ‘enlightened few’ a majority.
Now that you mention it, Vicar, I am mildly surprised not to have had either a British or American flag waver pop by to tell me I’m a godless liberal (which, of course, I am). The people who have disagreed, like IndyAndy and Jon have been informative, reasoned and made this a better post.
And thanks Ben (this is Toad Frere, say hello nicely everyone) I may have to go and read a bit more about that. You can give me a book about it as a wedding present at, er, your wedding!
One of the finest blog postings I’ve ever read.
And huge thanks for TMTCH song. I’d forgotten what a great version that was.
Just to add my support for your post.
I am embarassed at my ignorance.
Thanks, mate
Andrew
http://partlyporpoise.blogspot.com/
Good grief, don’t assume I’m an expert either, by any means. I was just talking about one aspect I happened to read about that really struck me, that’s all.
Do you know, I’m a tremendous fan of LC, but haven’t comitted the physical act of listening to ‘The Partisan’ for perhaps ten years now. Rereading those lyrics has rocked me into action, on this a very humdrum day.
Our troubles are small ones.
Thanks,
D.
One small comment I would like to add is that while yes some of my fellow American’s do look at the history of the French military exploits as a bit of a joke, it is not so for us all. Americans who are willing to learn (and there are many) myself included, have the utmost respect for the hundreds of thousands of Free French who landed with the US and British forces on D-Day. Who sheltered our OSS operatives at risk to not only their own lives but the lives of their families( something a US Army soldier never had to do, the risk was always to himself, not his daughters or sons). Who openly fought the German Occupation with every ounce of their being. Here we find the distinction between us and the rest of ambivalent America. (I use “ambivalent” here on purpose. Americans aren’t ignorant, nor are they apathetic, global issues just don’t have the tangible affects on them they way they do Europeans) The Americans who have not learned as much as they can do remember the Vichy collaboration and the many instances when these Frenchmen actually fought against the allies during the war. They do know that while the British geared up to send their sons across the channel in defense of Poland the French Army hunkered down along its ill fated and Maginot line, left leave Poland to its fate and was out of the fight in weeks. Americans believe that more could have been done by much of France. Whether its true or not thats what they believe. I don’t know if there was anything they could have done. I will say most historians do claim that the French at the time could have done more. As to the comment about Russia’s loss of life I will simply say that had Hitler given his soldiers winter uniforms and launch Barbarossa 5 weeks earlier Stalin too would have been out of the fight. In the end I firmly believe it was HItler’s bungling that saved all our asses back in WWII.
I wouldnt have written so much had your post not been so thought provioking.
So Cheers! to a great post and even better songs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#Conflicts_with_Britain_in_Dakar.2C_Syria.2C_and_Madagascar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#Faults_of_logistical_planning