Crazed Fundie Evangelist tries to Convert the Toad with Poorly Thought-Out Polemic
I received this email in response to my post about herd reactions to political arguments and, at times, facts themselves. It was thoughtful and well-written so I thought it deserved elevating to post status. The other reason is that for all I am very anti-religious myself, I have plenty of religious friends who I like and respect, and I’m always slightly fearful when I lurch into one of my rants that I might be mortally offending them, or at least taking great liberties with both our respect and friendship. So it’s a relief to hear a complete stranger not just react with something along the lines of ‘fuck you, you Jesus-hater’ or something else equally angry.
So I apologise for the just everso slightly facetious picture and leave you in the hands of the lovely LS:
Okay, so first of all I should say that I’m one of those Christian types. I know, I know, venomous antipathy coming at me from the house of Toad, but I also love Broken Records (amazing Toad session btw) and am currently about 47% gin so don’t judge me too harshly just yet. The reason I wanted to comment on your post is, as you seemed to be suggesting, the idea that Christianity and conservative capitalist politics are cut from the same cloth is clearly misguided, their incompatibility should be completely self evident. But obviously this isn’t the case, in the States at least.
A cursory googling of Christianity+Socialism brings up a huge number of anti-liberal diatribes by rattled Republicans, clearly feeling the need to remind their readership that any left-leaning ‘Christians’ out there are clearly in the thrall of their Satanic overlords (some are truly terrifying, viz. ’60 Hard Truths about “Liberals”‘ http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Politics/Articles/Liberals.htm).
The ‘vote for me because I’m a Christian’ campaign tactics of so many Republican candidates is genuinely repugnant, appealing to just that kind of tribal, herd mentality that you’re talking about, perpetuating a Them and Us way of thinking. What they’re really saying is you’re not a Christian if you don’t vote for me. In fact you’re not an American either, or a human being at all – off to Guantanomo you terrorist-loving, child-murdering, communism-causing, mp3-downloading scum. And then there’s the “family values” mantra, a term that means precisely whatever the user wants it to. Jesus was a single man rejected by his own family, without property, who made his home among prostitutes and tax collectors – the most despised elements of society.
Most evangelical Christians I know in the UK would probably lean more to the left, and I’m tempted to suggest that the emergence of the evangelical right in the States is much more of a cultural phenomena. The American emphasis on the unassailable constitutional rights of the individual is so often twisted out of shape into a dogmatic, self-righteous advocacy of personal responsibility – to the point where the Right seem to believe that people either choose or deserve to be poor, or exploited, or made redundant or whatever; that if they just tried a bit harder to be proper Americans then they could have nice big houses in the suburbs too. Whereas a left-leaning perspective acknowledges that there are systems and structures that entrench and perpetuate poverty, and that social reform is the responsibility of those who have power in society. Those who selectively choose parts of the bible to support a particular political position ignore the simple fact that the bible advocates both personal responsibility and social responsibility, to ‘love my neighbour as myself’. The capitalist model of social Darwinism that promotes avarice and exploits the weak couldn’t be further from the biblical emphasis on the importance of community, of economic justice and responsible stewardship of the environment. It teaches us that we cannot serve both God and Mammon.
As much as I agree with your opinion that much electoral activity is determined by a mentality in which the individual seeks to align themselves with the group in which they feel most comfortable, I also think that the way politics is reduced to black and white one-issue campaigns is equally significant. Voting for someone simply because of their stance on Iraq, or abortion, or wind farms is just lazy, the voter picking what issues affect them personally and ignoring the wider implications of what a candidate represents. The idea that if you disagree with a party on one issue you thereby must support the opposition by default is patently ludicrous. Surely no one can wholeheartedly subscribe to every single issue or policy that any political party espouses? Parties constantly shift stance on issues, and change can be effected from within. Obviously some issues are more important or personally relevant than others, but voters need to look beyond individual policies at what lies behind a party’s decision-making, even if that means choosing, as it were, the lesser of two evils.
Yikes. Did I really write all that? I know, get myself a blog already. I think I win hands-down in the portentous pomposity stakes, and I’m sure I will hugely regret sending this in the morning! I blame the gin.
Hoping that the next Toad post won’t be something along the lines of ‘Crazed Fundie Evangelist tries to Convert the Toad with Poorly Thought-Out Polemic’. [snigger - Toad]
You’d probably better go off and listen to something loud and blasphemous right away.
All best,
LS
I think, actually, that I can oblige there:
The Thermals – Pillar of Salt
And there’s more good stuff where that came from too:
The Thermals – Here’s your Future
The Thermals – How We Know
wow…interesting and balanced stuff, and very well articulated. when it comes to religion, i have some ‘previous’ of my own. but to this day, i find myself grudgingly in awe of very religious people…. the ability to generate faith, to make the leap. its something i could never do. i include science in that, isnt science just another religion anyhow? what happened to this blog? can we not just dribble and listen to tunes? brain hurts.
nice of him to give you a title! less gin, more thought
You know, I’m an atheist and still thought this was a fair go. I wish I knew more about the relationship between British politics and religion, save for the bit about Tony Blair waiting until the end of his term to become a Catholic – there’s so damn much drama to keep up with in the US as is. But it’s funny to read this when thinking about American politics and realizing that I don’t recall Christianity being so heavily associated with conservatives until Bush Jr. came into office. Certainly, my perspective is skewed because I grew up in Los Angeles, which is a pretty liberal place, but I do wonder if in the last decade he has had an influence on what it means to be “American,” “family-oriented,” “a good Christian.”
It really worries me that so many candidates in this election are having to emphasize their faith to get across that their values are morally in tune with the average American – it’s become such a norm to be “Christian” and “American” that I can’t imagine ever having a president of any other faith, or lack thereof, god forbid (no pun intended). And just as LS mentioned about people who get lazy and vote based on one issue’s position, it saddens me that we so often associate “Christian” with “conservative” and “non-religious/other” with “liberal,” because I’m positive that many of us choose our candidates based on faith and not necessarily social or political issues, since it seems we have to choose one package versus another, and can’t separate religion and politics these days. That’s another form of laziness, I would say.
Outside of politics, I really wish I knew more Christians who could look at things fairly and sympathetically, because the ones I’ve personally known have mostly been quite close-minded, this opposite of true Christianity that’s mentioned. From agreeing to go to church with a friend and being given a pamphlet that shows the church’s belief that atheists go to hell, to the friends who tell me it’s “nice that I have an opinion” on God but that I’m “wrong,” to the Catholic who says God loves all and then makes horribly snide racist comments. There’s so much hypocrisy on this side, and I wish to death that there were more people out there who didn’t make me wish an end to religion. Oh Christ, I’ve taken up too much space. Sorry, Toad.
(you should have seen it coming)
He should be listening to The Shamen’s “Jesus Loves Amerika” or Thrashing Doves’ “Jesus on the payroll”
is it any wonder this thing isn’t being picked up by hype machine any more?
It is being picked up by the Hype, they just hate my Broken Records mp3s for some reason. I think I’ve got the sample rate wrong, so I’ll be trying again shortly.
China, you’re right about the shouting. The number of times you hear some shrill fundie shrieking ‘Christian’ in and around the word ‘American’ at the moment is a little disturbing. And ‘family’ has managed to take on a meaning directly in opposition to its actual meaning. It’s at the point now where the actual concept of what it means to be in a family – nurture, companionship, love, affection, sympathy, understanding – are so far divorced from its actual usage in the US press that we almost need to find a new word to describe what families are actually all about.
Over here it is a little different. When Tony started barking on about his Catholicism pretty much the entire nation became slightly embarrassed and tried to pretend we couldn’t hear him. For most people it was considered to be somewhere between pretty bad form and so irrelevant they barely noticed it – we just didn’t want to know. I don’t think there was much in the way approval, that’s for sure, and long, long may it stay that way.
Love it.
Isn’t it great to be wrong?
I love it when you make assumptions that turn out to be total bullshit. (AJ and Ctel, what makes you think that LS is a man? Other than that they offer an intelligent, well rounded arguement, expressed in an eloquent manner?)
And I love it when you adhere to a lazy generalisation without realising it (man, aren’t Christians like, so close-minded?), only to have someone call you out and perfectly illustrate how wrong you are – not only that, but in a way that turns the accusation back on you.
And, after consulting with the thesaurus, it turns out that this is exactly what LS has done.
i thought ls was a woman! just goes to show ya . . .
actually, i thought ls put forth a very coherent argument. as coherent as toad’s. i’m not about to try to integrate the two, just thought i’d say that i enjoy this kind of give and take very much.
you should probably post some ms (mindless self indulgence)i, though, and a few half-handed cloud songs just for balance.
Hello Bart – I think CTel was suggesting that I should listen to those song, and as a self-confessed male, the ‘he’ makes sense. AJ, however, makes no sense at all. I can’t even figure out what that comment is supposed to mean.
I don’t think I was making any statements about closed-minded Christians particularly. I was, in the original post, making the point that we are herd-following non-thinkers when it comes to many social arguments, political ones being the worst. I pointed out that the strange conflation of religion, particularly in the States, with right wing ideology was really odd because I just don’t see how the two philosophies overlap, for the most part. I also used the Bill Clinton = good, George Bush = bad analogy for liberals (not necessarily atheists) to show how two people doing exactly the same thing can be treated in diametrically opposed ways by people backing their side instead of looking at actions and reacting accordingly.
If anything I thought LS and I were agreeing with one another, no?
Still adjusting to my newfound-fame as a songbytoad contributor/Defender of the Faith. Am gratified, nay, humbled by all these nice things, it’s not every day I’m accused of well-rounded eloquence, so thank you.
Matthew – I’m pretty sure we were agreeing with each other. In a staggeringly pompous, needlessly wordy, so-open-minded-our-brains-might-fall-out kind of way.
China – interesting what you say about Bush Jr’s influence on the conflation of Christianity and conservative politics, to be honest I only dimly recall the BW (Before Dubya) era, but I suspect that in a lot of ways he’s more effect than cause, his government ballasted by a resurgency in the evangelical right that was bubbling over towards the end of the Clinton administration. Most of the Republicans I know don’t think Bush was ever conservative enough. But hey, I’m just a Scottish lass barely out of university with the political acumen of a retarded squirrel, so don’t be fooled that I have any idea what I’m talking about!
However – I do understand to a certain extent why religion feels more comfortable in a conservative political atmosphere – conservativism supports the status quo, it tries not to interfere with or challenge the individual, supports institutional hierarchy and established social norms of morality. This is all well and good for the complacent, self-justifying ‘Christian’ who congratulates themselves on contributing to a robust economy even as they berate the liberals for daring to suggest that the rich should be taxed more than the poor. It’s very easy to be that kind of politically-conservative but theologically-liberal Christian, especially in the West – watering down faith into cosy, self-satisfied, Jesus-loves-me, wishy-washy, warm-and-fuzzy nonsense. In the words of my favourite hard-drinking Oxford don: “Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.” (C. S. Lewis)
I may be a bit lonely over here in the infinite importance camp, but I hope I can still peek over into the heathen corner every now and then – we all know the devil has the best tunes.
LS
Also, Bart – are you postulating that my grandiloquent mellifluousness necessitates lexical translation?
Cripes.
To be honest, I didn’t bother reading your post, Matthew.
And I clearly didn’t really understand yours at all, LS.
Now can we get back to me recommending bands noone else likes?
Otherwise what’s the point in me even being here?
Apart from the splendid beard.
Sort of like a Ginger Jesus.
(Sorry, is that blasphemous?)
Nice point. This is the year that women have been lambasted up one side & down another for thinking of voting for Hillary because she is a woman — voting for someone because of their religious affiliation seems just as useless. Howsoever it all turns out, I’ll join LS in the infinite importance camp & we can toast some marshmallows. Heh.
I think LS is hot and I’d totally like to go on a date with her and her brain.