What the Fuck IS Indie Disco Anyway?
Ladies and gentlemen there were some issues with this week’s appearance on The Waiting Room – DC’s 10pm-midnight slot on Error FM. Firstly, I was away and hugely disorganised, so DC had to record his bits in my absence and then sellotape my segment in later. This wasn’t so much of a problem of course, as it prevented him and that Fisk character from moaning about my song choices, which has its benefits.
The Waiting Room, Wednesday 2nd April, 2008
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Unfortunately it means I have no idea if I answered the question properly at all. I mean, indie dance? What? I tried to get information out of the lads beforehand but they weren’t very specific, so I just kind of winged it. Whenever I’ve been to indie clubs in the past they haven’t played a type of music I would have been able to identify as ‘indie disco’ as such, they’ve just played indie songs with a bit of a consistent, bouncy rhythm so that you can dance to them. Even The Smiths wrote a good few songs you can dance to, and if ‘hang the DJ’ wasn’t designed to be an end-of-night dance hall sing-along then I don’t know what was.
Supergrass – Caught By the Fuzz
The Smiths – Panic
The Smiths – This Charming Man
That said, there are a few dancey bands who I guess I would call indie – it just depends on how loosely you apply your category terms I guess. Personally I throw these terms about pretty carelessly because let’s face it, who really cares what specific type of music it is that you’re listening to, so yeah okay, indie disco I guess. Fisk played Stereolab, who are a group I really like, but didn’t play the likes of Saint Etienne, who I would have thought fit that category pretty well, as do groups like Goldfrapp, Blondie and The Long Blondes (the new album really is just dance floor indie – it’s not great, but it’s dancey stuff).
Saint Etienne – Nothing Can Stop Us
That said, I’ve been in clubs where they’ve even played stuff like The Rat by The Walkmen, which is based around the band battering shite out of their guitars for most of the song, and people, myself included, leapt around like maniacs. That wasn’t even remotely dance music by any genre definition, but it proved to be a hugely popular song to dance to at the time. So there you go. Come to think of it, this would probably have made a much better, more considered response to the question at hand, but I had to rush it and given my 20 minute slot I’d never have had time to get all that rambling in there anyway. So sorry DC, not sure I hit the nail on the head with that one, but I’ll do better next week, promise.
The Walkmen – The Rat
And tell Fisk that Orbital are bloody awful.
You said “And tell Fisk that Orbital are bloody awful.” If you mean the brothers Hartnoll, you are ondangerous territory. Orbital were a brilliant band. And totally brilliant live. I’ll not hear a word against them. Any smart remarks and the tadpole gets it.
I mean that rubbish drone electronica meets elevator music gubbins that people in the early 90s liked to take drugs to.
Rubbish, I say!
Toad is clearly affected by chytrid fungus.
I did try, back then, as well. I looked at that lot, noticed how left field and cool an attitude all their fans affected and thought ‘oh, I wonder if deep down I might be as cool as them?’, so I listened and listened and eventually had to conclude that the answer is no.
With age, that opinion has swung from ‘I’m not cool enough’ all the way round to ‘no, they really are shit’, which I think I am a lot more comfortable with, as a concept
Bloody hell Toad, you’ve been a busy poster boy. Lookit ‘em all.
Anyway…
I think the problem with the term ‘indie dance’ stems from the baggyism populating the tail end of the 1980s & early 1990s. ‘Indie Disco’ (the likes of The Smiths, James, etc.) is an entirely different prospect, which is where wires, I think, have been inadvertently crossed.
That shufflefoot, shoegaze uptemponess from the likes of Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Inspiral Carpets & James (whom I was surprised Fisk didn’t play or reference) was basically it as far as widespread/crossover recognition goes. There were a handful of bandwagon passengers (notably most of the obscurer types Fisk plays in the show + a lo of others I can’t be arsed to list here) who were, let’s face it, copyists.
But, & he’ll hate me for this, once the drug of choice, for listeners & music makers alike (in the early 90s), moved significantly from weed to E to speed, the music output changed & became more scratch ‘n’ sniff sample/bpm-orientated (see The Orb, Orbital et al) i.e. Indie Rave (the forebearer to *puke* Nu-Rave). The crossover between shuffle guitar & brushed drums with the emerging Happy Hardcore shite created this hybrid of questionable content, the likes of which Mr. Fisk gobbled up (along with his clinic in the car park/field in the middle of nowhere prescriptions) & won’t let go of to this day.
I think the whole problem (in terms of figuring out what the hell Fisk means by ‘indie dance’) is the collision of these two movements & what it led to in terms of listening habits & the opening up of 2 normally opposite ends of the spectrum genres to 2 differing audiences — the openly druggy Stone Roses-a-like influences & the open air concerts/E-love-a-thons (Spike Island, etc.) & the then customary illegal gatherings/raves seemed perfect stable mates (esp. with the amount of pills & powder flying about). To be honest, I don’t even think Fisk can properly explain what it is he means, because like his contemporary audience members (& I use the term ‘audience’ very loosely because most people where there for everything else except to watch the DJ or the ‘band’) they were drug-addled impressionables who’ve had their minds irreversibly warped by overuse which compounded a basic understanding (from the point of view that they were too young to have formulated proper musical opinion & taste at that age) of what music really was.
It’s a world I never entered into because I considered ‘dance’/rave/bpm entirely redundant, & lost a lot of friends because of my vocal denouncement. Like/believe it or not, a ton of what I would consider ‘indie’heads’ (who were ito the likes of Big Black, Sonic Youth, The Ramones, The Smiths, The Cure, Bauhaus, Dead Can Dance, The Cocteau Twins, etc.) suddenly ditched their record collections for these two ‘new’ genres’ & the hybrid bastard child. They couldn’t see past their ‘new religion’ (more than one person actually referred to it as such & I was only so far away from slapping them in the chops for being fucking twattish) or how the world wasn’t going to change significantly because of this new music. &, frankly, that’s exactly where the drugs came in & the music, irrespective of its worth, took a back seat & became merely a soundtrack to substance abuse.
The “loved up” element, i.e. the copius amount of pop & snort that was overshadowing a genuine music lover’s purpose for going to these large gigs/events, couldn’t see beyond their dealer’s prices or the rolled tenners primed for another line. & I had a serious truck with that & still do. The music didn’t shange the world, or this island we know as UK, at all. The sudden availability of drugs over the genre border was what changed things, if anything at all, & it changed people, & mainly for the worse.
Anyone these days, like Fisk, who still hark back to those days as halcyon & tag musical ingenuity onto pretty much anything that vaguely resembles that era’s output, is bascially a casualty of the intake rather than an appreciator of the music. I’ll stand by that statement on the basis of the many, many friends I ‘lost’ to speed & E &, inevitably, cocaine throughout the whole of the 90s.
“Hedonism”, one friend said, “is where I’m at.” & that’s what I hated about the whole thing, the music, & the sheep-like drone clan that jumped into the aftermath of the so-called fucking NME/Melody Maker ratified ‘second summer of love’ aftermath. Anyone remember the millstone that was the tag ‘weekenders’? i.e. the 9-5ers who lived for the ‘party’ & fuck all else. So many I knew lost jobs because of speed come downs or missing work to attend or recover from an impromptu ‘festival’.
Did the 60s/70s not teach anyone anything? Of course not. Fucking hedonism my arse. Most of the twats couldn’t even spell it, let alone give me an accurate definition of the term.
Nu-Rave, by the way, for me is just another indication that styles & genres are being cherry picked by those looking for ‘inspiration’ on a decade by decade basis – we’ve suffered the 80s throwbacks, now it’s time for the 90s. Nu-Grunge next, anybody? Fucking hell, hope not.
That aside, I think you did your admirable best within the undefined constraints of Fisk’s dodgy remit.
Oh dear oh dear. This all seems to be degenerating into the late 80s dance vs indie ruckus that I thought we’d all got over long ago. You can enjoy both you know.
And Halcyon + on + on is a great track.
No ruckus here, just exasperation as to why.
In other words the movement dragged its early musical soundtrack with it but when the social movement outstripped the musical one, the artistic output was stretched a little thin?
Bit like the return of easy listening and ‘chill out’ in the early noughties – the push for laid back, musically interesting and yet not too intrusive music exploded into the dining rooms of the ageing middle classes to the point where there wasn’t enough music to meet the demand and hence the genre collapsed in on itself.
Or something like that.
Exactafuckingmundo.
p.s. the Peter & The Wolf gig recorded beautifully (excepting whirrs from the MiniDisc Recorder every now & then) & it was a fucking joy to behold. Now I’m torn between playing the whole thing in one or intercutting it with the interview. Isn’t it delicious when faced with a choice where either part has equally fabulous (not a word that passes my lips/fingers too often) possibilities?
Spent the remainder of the night wandering Bristol streets, pub/licensed cafe-crawling, with Red & Planet Earth singing along to his baritone mandolin strumming & gleefully interacting with nonplussed pissed up locals. Glorious isn’t the word.
Afterglow at 100%, still.
Sounds brilliant, DC. I doubt you’ll be able to fuck it up anyway – if the original material is that good.
CTel – I don’t think I hate dance music entirely, but I think my genre definitions are a bit loose. I mean, plenty of what I would call indie would probably be called dance by other folk, and it’s all eminently danceable. I just never took to that specific musical movement that Nick Fisk seemed to be aiming at in his show, although I really did try.
There are definitely some records in my collection that could easily be termed dance music, I reckon. Not many though.
I am the aforementioned Fisk. I don’t know what indie dance is either, and I don’t care. I’ve never liked any terms used to put music into genres, especially ones that sound so naff, like indie dance. The only thing I would say in defence of the music of the era, ie. Madchester, etc. was that it was all fcking great! Quality songs, quality tunes. I liked the fact that at the time, everyone was listening to all sorts of music – indie, house, hip hop, whatever – nobody cared, you could listen to anything. Your musical output didn’t matter – let’s face it, The Stone Roses only produced one record – Fool’s Gold – that could properly be termed as a dance record – but they loved all kinds of music. Unlike now, people seem to listen to only limited styles, and say they don’t like other types of music, meaning they close their ears to a whole host of possibilities. And frankly, I think the current indie scene is absolutely dire. Unlike the house/techno scene, which is still thriving, even if it is now probably more underground than it’s ever been. But it’s ridiculous to say you have to be “cool” to be into this music – people at techno clubs are always extremely welcoming.
Unlike the house/techno scene, which is still thriving, even if it is now probably more underground than it’s ever been.
Isn’t that an oxymoron?
In think Monsieur Fisk is entirely right about the narrowing of styles to which people are listening and i think it may have a lot to do with the availability of the raw material. There is so much indie-pop, -rock, -folk etc… for me to plough through just writing this site that I rarely have the time to take a look at other stuff. This is definitely a bad thing – it seems to lead to a very US style pigeonholing of groups into tiny little over-defined categories which define themselves not only by musical style but by the demographic which they serve, and I am not sure I like this very much at all.
Actually, Toad, if you take the average American, at least the ones I know, their tastes swing wildly from one genre to another (without embracing the godawful tag ‘ironic’) & they’ll happily listen to Spears or Aguilera, then a bit of cock rock, then a bit of jaunty indie pop, then some werided out indie-fied folk, then back to Michael Jackson & then off to 50 Cent & so on.
So, as much as I agree that pigenholing can be dangerous for the expansion of audience penetration/independent discovery & so on I don’t think people are that stuckfast in the types of music they listen to nowadays.
The real issue, I’d say, & as you hi-light yourself, is time. There’s simply just far too much music & too much of an easy availability of said (not that that’s a problem or anyone’s fault) via the interweb & whatnot.
Perhaps we need to introduce some kind of worldwide rationing? Limit it to 10 new bands, worldwide, a month & they’re not allowed to release more than an EP in their first year so the emphasis is on gigging; existing bands are only allowed 1 album per year & maybe two singles; radio/live sessions are limited to 3 per new band per year, one per existing band & cover versions are banned for thrity years. The likes of Girls Aloud & their ilk are restricted to only releasing ONE track on ONE collective compilation ONCE a year (I suggest Now That’s What I’m Wasting My Pocket Money On) & all other compilations (including Best Of’s) are banned indefinitely.
We could have uniforms & everything; patrol gigs & record shops with cattle prods & have ‘shower rooms’ fitted in Music Schools/Colleges.
Never thought I’d say this, but I think Fisk might be onto somehing… but did he have to fucking mention the fucking Stone fucking Roses a-fucking-gain?
I actually didn’t mean Americans and their music tastes – I mean the music shops, where everything gets a tag and anything I like could be in one of about fifteen different sections, which is rather annoying.
Apart from the time problem I actually think indie might be one of the most narrow-minded genres really. I know that might have a lot to do with the fact that it is – since indie stopped meaning ‘independent’ and a became a looser, more generic term – possibly one of the biggest genre umbrellas around, but indie kids seem to find it harder than most to get out of their indie tunnel.
Apologies, was just using Americans as an example of listenership – I think we can take it as read music shops are always defnied by who owns them & what they think will sell within the demographic they know they sell to. That’s unavoidable. Even the best independent stores & smaller chains are guilty of this, & always have been.
Personally I think the term ‘indie’ stopped being effective around the mid-end of the 90s. Everything else that followed was simply a tack on to a ‘sound’ & look rather than an instinct & restriction of market force. Just as, for example, the ‘grunge’ look started appearing in Topshop & the like, independent record labels were bought up & swallowed/neutralised by the subsidaries of majors in order to tap into a burgeoning commercial/financial avenue. It happens in every generation & I’m oft reminded of the Withnail & I quote:
“If you’re hanging on to a rising balloon, you’re presented with a difficult decision – let go before it’s too late or hang on and keep getting higher, posing the question; how long can you keep a grip on the rope? They’re selling hippie wigs in Woolworth’s, man. The greatest decade in the history of mankind is over. And as Presuming Ed here has so consistently pointed out, we have failed to paint it black.”
Amen.