Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds – Live, Carling Academy Glasgow, Sunday 4th May 2008
I think Nick Cave finishes a whisker below Tom Waits in my personal pantheon of musical heroes. I think. It’s bloody close.
If I were to really have to come down on one side of that argument or another I think it might end up being on the basis that I think Cave has taken marginally more missteps over the course of his career, but then that’s hardly a cut-and-dried assertion. I don’t know.
One difference is that for all the prospect of a chat and a cuppa with Tom Waits would terrify me, I would really rather avoid the same with Mr. Cave. For all that for the most part I worship his artistic output, personally he seems like a right tosser; pretentious, vain, and quite incredibly full of himself. I’m not saying that this is how he is as a person exactly, but it is very much how he comes across to me, and I can’t imagine much good would come of meeting the man – a few too many images to be destroyed that I would prefer to keep intact thank you.
Of course, without that impossibly grandiose attitude his music would never be so good and his live show would be a shadow of its strutting, messianic self, so in wishing it away you’d be stripping the emperor of his clothes. As it is, you just have to accept it as a fundamental part of the pantomime, sit back and enjoy. And if you can do that, then the Bad Seeds’ live show is just scorching. Warren Ellis leaps about at the front like a demented hobo, torturing his violin in a manner that would thin the lips of a classical purist at fifty paces.
Musically, I am reminded of two things: firstly, what a genius this man is. The set list is peppered with old classics like Tupelo and Papa Won’t Leave You Henry, but for the most part songs are drawn from his most recent album Dig, Lazarus Dig. This is the second thing of which I am reminded: a lot of this album really isn’t very good. There are exceptions – Night of the Lotus Eaters, We Call Upon the Author and Dig, Lazarus Dig are just brilliant – but a lot of the others just don’t cut the mustard, especially when surrounded by his older material.
It works very well as a set list though, and this is one of tightest groups you will ever see play live, odd assortment of mad, lecherous old bastards though they may be. And what a brilliant, driven, raging performance for a group of duffers in their 50s. The Rolling Stones had long since given up by this point.
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds – Papa Won’t Leave You, Henry
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds – I Let Love In
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds – We Call Upon the Author
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds – Tupelo
Well he’s no.1 in my musical pantheon and I’m gutted I’m not getting to see him this time round – especially if he’s playing Tupelo. Agree totally with the assessment of the latest – felt significantly let down by it particularly as the single was so good. Along with Nocturama it’s one his least consistent, IMHO.
It was an absolutely brilliant performance of Tupelo, really it was. Just phenomenal.
I wavered a little on the No.2 thing as well – about last year when Waits released his slightly disappointing Orphans and Cave was brewing Grinderman I definitely went back and forth a couple of times. There are both there or thereabouts – no point splitting hairs about it I guess.
Slightly disappointing album of b-sides and rarities which clearly eclipses most things that other artists have done or could do??!! I’m not sure that slightly disappointing by Tom Waits standards even registers as disappointing on anyone elses crapometer. I have to admit that I was only recently united with Nick Cave but certainly Abbatoir Blues/Lyre and the Orpheus was instantly regarded as one of the best albums I have bought in years. Tremendous stuff. Slightly disappointed with the new album but only slightly. However, comparing him to Tom Waits – well I just don’t think he does compare. Tom Waits is my musical hero and stands head and shoulders above any other artist in my musical world – apart fro Wilco – but he’s got years on them!
The only issue I have with Orphans is that most of the best tracks were already on the bootleg Tales From the Underground series. I have all of those, so the best tracks on Orphans were for the most part songs I already knew, which was a little disappointing. Add to that a couple of really mediocre tracks like Fish in the Jailhouse and I was slightly underwhelmed. If I’d been hearing everything for the first time I would have doubtlessly been much, much happier.
And as to triple albums of b-sides, you could do a lot worse than Cave’s own three-CD compilation. Pure genius.
I take your point. But as I indicated – I’m fairly new to Mr Cave. Slowly feeling my way into his world – though I’m not sure how I missed him and hearing him has really influenced the sound of the kays. Was quite inspiring hearing tunes like O Children, Easy Money etc. Really want to invest more and more in his music.
As for Waits. Well I have to admit that I’m never really disappointed with him because he is more creative and imaginative than most artists, rarely disappoints. It always amuses me when people talk about Neil Young, Bob Dylan, The Beatles etc as being a class above – I could name a hell of a lot of work by all of them that is disappointing over the span of their careers. Mr Waits has very little I would criticise.
Well Tom Waits has a good 10 or so years on Mr Cave, see, so I think it a little unfair to compare the two at this stage, not to mention the irrevocably diverse backgrounds of the two. Tom Waits comes from a Jazz/Blues/rock/Vaudville perspective, Cave from a Punk/Rock/Traditional blues/pop perspective. Cave’s body of work IS very impressive, and never disappoints live.
Nick Cave is easily one of the best artists of our time, with work spanning three decades he has built on and maintained an extraordinary creative career, with more energy now than ever. He never disappoints, an enigmatic performer in the league of Bowie, Waits and Dylan; although I think it an injustice to discredit him by comparison.
Why would you want to maintain personal images of a vain pretentious, tosser? Is it because he wouldn’t give you an interview? I’m not surprised, I wouldn’t either with a write up like that.
wow matthew – you pissed off a nick cave fan – you vain, pretentious tosser…….:O)
Why is it that the supercilious dicks never, ever leave their names.
I am not discrediting Cave by comparison to Dylan or Bowie or Waits. I would say that he stands up there with both Dylan and Waits in my personal list of musical heroes. Bowie I am not a huge fan of, for the most part, although of course I think he has done some brilliant stuff. Please note the word personal in that evaluation. I am not saying that any of those people are superior or inferior to anyone, I am talking about the extent to which I love the work of the artists in question. Tom Waits is my favourite, I think, but I waver on him Cave and Dylan all the time because I think they are all geniuses.
Reading that review and the subsequent comments do you get the impression I think Nick Cave is anything less than a legend? If that’s the case then one of us can’t fucking speak English, and I am confident that it is not me.
I have never asked either Nick Cave or Tom Waits for an interview for obvious fucking reasons. I am not the fucking NME, do you think they or any of their ‘people’ have even read this site? No, me neither.
Having said that, I would far prefer to interview Waits than Cave because from the outside (please note that I made the superficiality of this impression very clear to begin with) Waits comes across as a far more approachable, accessible person.
Did you ever read Cave’s letter to MTV when he turned down some award or other with them? Read it. It is characteristic of the man, and the penultimate paragraph in particular comes across as a bit fucking much, frankly, although I agree with the overall sentiment. The language he uses, the cod-religious chatter and so on – it all comes across as someone who would be so much of a loftily troubled artist that they would be very hard to get along with personally.
Artistically as well, the man is extremely grandiose and, at times, very very pompous. As it is, I love his music so I don’t care, but I can imagine people who are less enamoured looking at him and quite legitimately thinking that he is a prat.
I also get the impression that if you asked him a question in casual conversation which he considered beneath him then there could well be an artistic flounce and that would be that. Then again, I have already said that these are superficial impressions and of course he could be totally different in person. This is the man who pushed Kylie to perform I Should Be So Lucky at a poetry reading, and who came out with the remark about her hotpants that can be found at the bottom of this page, so he is obviously a witty man. You can’t read his lyrics and doubt that.
What I mean about him is that, particularly since the Boatman’s Call, there has been a wall of artifice in front of him which makes it very difficult to get a handle on who he really is and a conversation with someone like that can be deeply frustrating if they maintain that sort of act in real life. I don’t claim to know if he does.
Thank you for your instructive and perspicacious comments though. They have taught me a valuable lesson about judging people, about respecting artists and, most importantly, about life. I am in your debt.
I found the link to this review on Cave’s website, posted sometime today. I happen to know he posted it himself, and left room for people to comment on your review. How vain and pretentious can that be? I think the main problem for people like you is that you immediately glorify, patronise and subsequently vilify these artists.
There is a HUGE difference between an artists work, and the artist. Would you claim that a painter had the same essence as their work? Or a sculptor perhaps? I think not, so why the attitude with musicians?
I think you’d find him as human as the next person, if only you treated him with the same respect you would anyone else. Or do you make gross misjudgements about everyone you don’t know?
Still failing with the reading comprehension I see.
I have made the point often enough that I don’t claim to know how he is in real life. He himself would presumably agree that he has an artistic persona that is not exactly conducive to a relaxed chat over a pint. I make the point above that it works brilliantly with his music.
But, and I presume he would agree on this, you cannot have an artificial persona so complete, so extreme and so messianic and not expect to give the impression of someone who is a little full of themselves. Yes people’s art and personality are different, but they are usually not entirely separate.
As I said before, if he maintains that kind of completely opaque facade in real conversations then it would probably make him difficult to talk to which is why I said I would be very dubious about meeting him in person. You will note I have said on numerous occasions I do not pretend to know whether or not he does maintain much of his artistic persona in real life.
Posting the review himself on his message board and not making angry comments about him certainly does not come across as vain and pretentious. Absolutely. And I am not denying that he may be a lovely bloke in real life, of course I’m not. But meeting someone and hoping that they just might drop the facade and be really decent seems like a riskier bet than someone who comes across as being less guarded in the first place.
Tom Waits could easily be the most difficult, unapproachable person in the world, of course he could. But I would be less circumspect about meeting him in the flesh that I would about meeting Nick Cave
That, mate, is the language of a jilted fanboy. Go to the search box of this site and type in Nick Cave. See what I say about the man and his work and them come back and see if you think that accusation is anything other than a fart in a windstorm.
I have never asked either Nick Cave or Tom Waits for an interview for obvious fucking reasons. I am not the fucking NME, do you think they or any of their ‘people’ have even read this site? No, me neither.
Having said that, I would far prefer to interview Waits than Cave because from the outside (please note that I made the superficiality of this impression very clear to begin with) Waits comes across as a far more approachable, accessible person.
Did you ever read Cave’s letter to MTV when he turned down some award or other with them? Read it. It is characteristic of the man, and the penultimate paragraph in particular comes across as a bit fucking much, frankly, although I agree with the overall sentiment. The language he uses, the cod-religious chatter and so on – it all comes across as someone who would be so much of a loftily troubled artist that they would be very hard to get along with personally.
How can you expect to be taken seriously with statements like these.
First you apologise for taking superficial views, covering yourself with statements that you haven’t met them but… then go on a personal attack, “It is characteristic of the man” “it all comes across as ssomeone who would be so much of a loftily troubled artist that they would be very hard to get along with personaly” etc.
So how the fuck would you know?
And why would you expect him to be your drinking buddy at the pub anyway?
It’s obvious he DOESN’T have an entourage of “people” as you put it.
It’s also obvious that these sentiments come solely from your own sense of inadequacy.
I am a WOMAN
You are a woman are you? So what?
Right, allow me to make one last effort to explain the paragraph you quote above in nice clear sentences:
That letter he wrote to MTV, for all I agree with the sentiment, was written in very, very pretentious language. All that stuff about harnessing his muse to this tumbrel and so on. It is also very characteristic of a lot of the things he writes. His novel When the Ass Saw the Angel was nothing if not grandly artistically ambitious. The lyrics to his most recent stuff are brilliant, but they are not in any way conversational and the subject matter and the vocabulary are both arch, deliberate and constructed. In other words, it’s all grand gestures and no discernible human centre. The Boatman’s Call is an obvious counter to these generalisations, but they do nevertheless describe an awful lot of his artistic output very well. That is what I meant by characteristic of the man.
How the fuck would I know how I think he comes across? Because I am telling you, you buffoon – it’s a subjective, personal impression, as I have explained before. If he doesn’t come across to you that way then well done – gold star.
That is not the point I was making and you know it.
Maybe to you. But every artist, particularly of his scope, has a publicity team who handle not just what is issued, but who also collate what is written and said about him in the press. That is who I meant by his people. If you are saying that his work is publicised and his press is handled without any outside assistance then I would be a little surprised. What I was saying was that I would be surprised if they read this site, let alone considered it worth passing on to the man himself. That he read the review and posted it is also a surprise. But for an artist of his scale it is, as I say, far from to be expected.
Inadequacy? Brilliant. Well done. That’s it. Fuck, at least I can stop paying for that exorbitant psychiatrist now.
Oh, and I’ll be on the radio tonight at 8.30pm British Summer Time – freshair.org.uk just press the big green ‘Listen Live’ button – and funnily enough I have some Nick Cave on my playlist for tonight, so you can hear what I really think of him live in my own voice. Why not pop by and heckle me there too. I promise not to be openly hostile live on air. And what’s more I’m a bit of a beginner as well, so there may well be some comical balls-ups for you to chortle to yourself about in a vindicated fashion.
Wow – this is getting interesting – though I am not sure Nick Cave needs somebody to defend him or his work??! And if you know Matthew at all, your comments above about him are complete and utter wank! Like Nick Cave doesn’t need you, Matthew certainly doesn’t need me to defend him though so let me make this point instead. I find your whole “how dare you talk about Nick Cave like that” attitude a little pathetic. I fucking love Tom Waits but should Matthew have turned around today and said he “sucks balls”, I would merely respect his personal opinion whether I agree with it or not. We disagree about the Twilight Sad and Frightened Rabbit but I don’t try to discredit him as a person! Not cool.
Hang on to that psychiatrist wanker
Well I don’t think I was actually having much of a dig at him Euan. I didn’t say he sucked I said he was one of my heroes, but that his persona makes him come across as a pompous arse.
She can have a dig at me as a person all she likes, but the arguments themselves are thin. I think I have made the distinction between who he is as a person and how he comes across as an artist clear enough. I don’t claim to know the former, but the latter would make me a little dubious about sitting down for a cuppa with the fellow, and that is all.
Actually, all this reminds me, funnily enough of a story from a while back. A friend of a friend did the website for Grinderman and apparently Nick was very involved in the process himself, instead of the usual marketing flunky, and was a thoroughly nice chap to deal with. I’d forgotten about that until now. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s hardly obvious from the veneer he tends to present of course, but then, as I’ve already said a dozen times, I don’t know him personally.
Good grief, woman. Take a fucking paracetamol and have a lie down.
Dear oh dear. now I’m a wanker?? Or was that for matthew – either way:
Wasn’t it you that once said:
“I think you’d find him as human as the next person, if only you treated him with the same respect you would anyone else. Or do you make gross misjudgements about everyone you don’t know?”
So you only stick up for mega stars and call normal friendly chaps wankers. congrats. you are a real classy human being.
Matthew – I agree with you – you have never claimed to know the man and are only expressnig a personal opinion. Which is fine. Enjoy frightened rabbit!!!!! you fucking better after that last post about the album – how can you sit there acting all arrogant and vain making judgements about these guys – you don’t even know them nor do you know snow patrol – how dare you?!!!?! Aren’t they human beings like each of us?! How dare you voice an opinion against them.
And here was me thinking that only Morrissey fans reacted with such venom.
Ms suprcilliousetc… I’m not on here to apologise for Matthew but I was actually with him at the gig the other night and no-one could have been any doubt that afterwards he was in awe of what he’d seen. And I think that’s how it comes across in the review he’s penned above.
The fact that he has a low personal opinion on how he believes Nick Cave conducts himself is irrelevant and all you have done is sadly and pathetically reduce the level of debate to juvenile name-callling.
Oh and I’ll save you the bother cos I’m also a wanker….
The fact is that while I’ve been a fan of Nick Cave the musician for decades, Nick Cave the person scares and intimidates me and I wouldn’t want to meet him for those reasons.
Again, that’s purely my perception based on what I’ve read in the press and seen on TV, but that’s all I can base it on as I’ve nothing else to judge it on.
See JC, I don’t even have a ‘low’ personal opinion of how he conducts himself personally. I know it’s just a persona and all that, but it is still off-putting because when people have such opaque personas you never know if or when they are going to drop them.
And looking back, I don’t think in that review I made it quite clear how much I loved the gig but, for the record, I did. So there.
I am a WOMAN too. Where do I get the DRUGS that she is taking?
Can I just butt in and say….I thought the review was shite. Matthew – next time you review a gig, mention the actual gig: who cares about your opinion of the artist as a person!
Dermot, for the most part I wouldn’t disagree with you. Reading that review again there isn’t anything like enough discussion of the actual performance.
As for my opinion of the artist as a person – dead wrong, I’m afraid. That is one of the biggest reasons to go to a live performance. You go to find out about the band, find out more about the music, and get a bit closer to the whole thing. That’s why the lead singer’s chat, for any band, is important, because your opinion of them as people counts for a lot.
Look at it another way. If I went to see a sensitive singer songwriter who for all their shyness was actually quite charismatic, warm and witty with their between-songs banter then I would consider that relevant, wouldn’t you?
I do and don’t agree with you Matthew. I think when somebody plays such quiet, hushed music it is important that there is chat inbetween – especially in an initmate venue. However, I know Sigur Ros talk very little live and Mogwai are the same and nothing is lost from the performance or my enjoyment of the performance. I think getting to know a band and it’s members doesn’t always require the lead singer to talk – sometimes I don’t feel like saying much on stage – does that mean the crowd don’t enjoy the performance? I hope not. But at the same time – when I saw Neil Young and he barely spoke I was left a little disappointed. I think it varies from gig to gig.
I’m not saying that there is a right and a wrong way to do it, but it is certainly relevant. I was just pointing out that Dermot is wrong to say that it doesn’t merit discussion, because it’s a fundamental part of a live performance, whichever way the artist chooses to approach it.
But he is right in that there was too much chat about the Cave persona and not enough about the Bad Seeds’ gig in that review.
Hello Matthew & Ruan. First, sry for such short comments from me, but I’m a bit time-limited at the moment. Matthew, I’ll stick to my guns regarding your personal opinion of Nick Cave for the simple fact that (correct me if I’m wrong) you were specifically referring to how he presents himself in situations separate from the reviewed gig – eg, what he said in his statement to MTV / what it might be like to share a cuppa with him (a bit difficult to do during a gig, hehe!). Sure, the singer’s chat onstage between songs is important (if the singer chooses to chat) but what he wrote to MTV, etc, is irrevelant to that. Incidentally, I went to see him in Dublin Castle (which is almost on my doorstep) last Saturday and actually his between-song banter was really really funny and typically self-mocking. Anyway, I guess I’ll always be biased since I’ve been a HUGE fan for the past 20+ years.
Actually, I don’t know that I was differentiating between the MTV letter and the stage performance. I was only really thinking in terms of artistic persona vs real personality.
It all came from standing there early in the set and thinking that his persona could be off-putting and that it would be hard to disagree with someone who called him a pretentious wanker. I factored the stage strutting, the bombastic lyrics, the over the top language of the MTV letter and the somewhat portentous nature of his writing all into one general impression of his persona and thought that you could hardly be blamed for finding all that really pompous.
Like you, I’ve been a mad fan for years, although only about fifteen in my case, and so I don’t find it at all off-putting – it’s just part and parcel and you pretty much have to accept it as part of the art form. As I said, the music wouldn’t work so well without it.
All I was trying to say above, although I’ll admit I didn’t express myself very well, is that given no information about his real personality and only having his persona to go on, I would rather not sit down for a hypothetical cuppa/interview/pint/whatever with him, because I would be wary that the persona would never drop and that I would be left trying to have a conversation with a caricature the whole time. Other artists are far more transparent in how they come across.
Over the course of this thread I have remembered my friend’s story about the Grinderman web development. Also, now you mention his Dublin gig I remember a time in the Glasgow show during The Lyre of Orpheus when he had the crowd singing the ‘O Momma’ bits, and it got just slightly out of sync, and his response was genuinely amused and amusing. That’s the only time I’ve seen him seem open and natural. So thinking more about it I suppose I had more information about his actual personality than I realised, and he does, in those instances come across really well, so maybe there are enough indications that he is a nice bloke in real life.
Either way, this whole site is full of digressions. I’m not trying to be a music magazine, so making a distinction between someone’s stage performance during a specific gig and their performance persona in other areas is not something I’m going to do. For starters it does allow me to bring any wider knowledge I do have into any review I’m writing, and for seconds, I don’t think a straight ‘I went to this show, it was like this, it was good’ review is going to be all that interesting. There’s plenty of people out there doing that better than I do, so I tend to just leave them to it, and write about what I’m thinking.
I usually express it better than I did above, but generally I think this site is the better for it.
Well, better late than never I suppose. I really don’t see what all the fuss is about. I sort of like Nick Cave in a passive way, but I’ll admit that I’m not that well-versed in his whole body of work. I’ve got Tender Prey, Live Seeds, and The Boatman’s Call, and I like the early Birthday Party stuff, but I’m not an obsessive fan by any means. I’m sure this admission alone will be sufficient to prompt the super-silliest dick to consign me to perdition, but surely Nick Cave is well aware that his persona on stage and on record is a rather harrowing one, no? If not, he’s got to be peculiarly lacking in self-awareness. I mean, I’ve never even seen him live but I know that much just from listening to Live Seeds. And this whole “tortured auteur” vibe that he gave off in connection with the MTV award was such obvious wankery that I can hardly believe the matter is in dispute. His “muse”? I mean, for fuck sake, that’s the kind of thing that people should discuss only after the artist is deep in the cold cold ground; it is not something one should ever be heard to say about onesself. I really don’t know whether he is a “legend” or not, that’s a subjective call that I have never had occasion to make, but I certainly respect him for the excellent music I’ve heard and for his longevity, which is I’m sure not something that a late-70s Birthday Party fan would have predicted.
I actually liked Matthew’s “review.” I’m not sure I would have looked twice if it had just been a simple narrative description of a show I didn’t see. What’s the fun in that? And Matthew makes an interesting point about the emotional distance that often exists between an artist and his or her fans. I am genuinely uninterested in the opinions and personalities of artists and other celebrities, except insofar as those opinions and personalities are mediated by the art itself. It seems to me that the self-absorbed lives led by many artists is hard to distinguish from the lives of Asperger’s syndrome sufferers. Most geniuses are mad in some way, and so while I applaud their genius, I would have no wish to have their legs under my mahogany (well, mahogany veneer actually, but you get the idea).
Fucking Hell, Toad. I turn my back for FIVE minutes & you’re upsetting the vulnerable. Again.
Bloody hell, you rarely see that kind of ‘you can’t say anything about my hero, my God; he’s my life, my oxygen, my reason for wearing BLACK’ defence outside a Manic Street Preachers forum.
I bet she‘s a muslim.
According to JC, Morrissey fans can be quite excitable.
Are you calling Morrissey a Racist?
I thought he was calling Morrisey a cunt to be honest.
Well, Toad. I never thought I’d see the day when you called Morrissey a racist AND a cunt.
And a WOMAN.
Most unforgiveable of all, I believe I’ve also heard Matthew criticize Morrissey’s quiff.
It’s about as good as Cave’s ‘tache. But a lot less funny.
By the way, all this chit chat has prompted me to finally go out and download Dig!!! Lazarus Dig!!! I’ve been listening to it for most of the day and I think it’s brilliant. What the fuck’s your problem Matthew? Hang on to that psychiatrist, wanker.
At least you are still in sufficient command of your outrage that you remembered the comma. The sentence is significantly different without it.
(P.S. Say ‘buy’ Dig, Lazarus Dig, not download. It makes me look better.)
I was just thinking the same thing. What’s she got against psychiatrists anyway?
If it makes you feel better I dowloaded it from Amazon and paid dearly for the privilege. Cheers Nick, er, Mr. Cave. Please don’t write about me on your website. I swear I paid.
Shit!….he did those ‘O Momma’ bits in Dublin too, pretty much the way you described them in Glasgow. Well, I bet he STARTED it in Dublin though…
And hey, lay off Nick’s tache – it’s a mighty impressive and inspired acquisition and if you see a guy roaming the streets of Dublin with a similar one, well, that’ll be me! It’s coming on quite nicely as we speak.
Christ, I’ve been growing one for months and I can’t get beyond the Hitler+Brylcreem model. Shameful, really it is.