Alela Diane – To Be Still
Well, Alela Diane is a massive favourite here at Toad Hall, partly for the sheer beauty of Pirate’s Gospel and partly for her unfailingly gracious attitude, despite enormous tour fatigue, when recording her Toad Session last May. Having slowly clambered up the slippery pole of public recognition, she has finally arrived at a relatively major label release, with To Be Still released this week on Rough Trade.
Needless to say, as with all large label releases these days, even the indie ones it seems, her music takes an almighty kicking from clod-hopping production, but fortunately the songwriting is just as superb as ever and in the end manages to shine through.
It sounds a little more country than previous stuff, although presumably this is just down to the increased use of slide guitar, particularly early on, because the basic structure of the songs still seems similar to the folkier style of Pirate’s Gospel. One thing the glossier production has allowed which I do like is the addition of some occasional strings. These are used really judiciously – used to accent songs rather than dominate. There are no Hollywood strings here. The style of the fiddle is gorgeous as well: a perfect encapsulation of that ambiguous folk tease between the uplifting and the haunting.
Menig’s songwriting is perhaps best encapsulated in that single concept actually. Just as it lifts and starts to hint at what is often so horribly described in female singer-songwriters as ’soaring’ it changes tack unsettlingly and flips everything around by infusing it with a grief equally gripping. It just keeps shifting you back and forth like this, which I think is one of the main reasons why it is so wonderful.
Ultimately, I would much have preferred this album recorded in the bedroom style. I really think you could lose the bass and the drums and it would instantly become miles better: allowing her voice, her beautiful finger-plucking style and the gentle embellishments of the fiddle and the banjo some space to breathe. But while a lot of the personality may have been buried in the studio, this is still a very good album indeed, there is no denying that. Alela Diane Menig is a seriously talented woman.
Alela Diane – White as Diamonds
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this record is not released on rough trade… but on Names records.. the same label that released the pirates gospel.. the record has been licensed to rough trade in america but was recorded before that by exactly the same people who recorded the pirates gospel… so your view that the label directs the production is a bit wayward…
Perhaps – it’s always difficult to tell who makes the decisions from the outside, be it the producer, the engineer or the band.
Pirate’s Gospel, however, was a self-release which was first picked up by Holocene in Portland, then Names in the UK, then Fargo in France, to the best of my knowledge. So the original album was presumably all done with minimal outside input.
As for this one, are you saying that there was no input from any of the labels involved? If so I take it back, and find myself wondering about either Alela’s own decisions or perhaps the recording engineer or the producer, whoever is responsible for the arrangements and the mixing.
Because irrespective of where in the chain the decisions were made, as far as I am concerned the drum and the bass are almost entirely unnecessary and only serve to drown out the richness of both her voice and the more subtle instruments involved.
Her previous work and her acoustic session recordings, like the lovely Daytrotter ones, contain a lot of silence. Each pluck is allowed to breathe, and to die back into nothing and that produces, for me, great depth and warmth. Bass and drums, generally, do not produce that warmth with this kind of music, and only serve to drown out all the detail and fine texture of the song. They also tend to mean everything else has to be compressed to counter their dominance, which also robs the recording of subtleties.
Certainly, though, I assumed that Rough Trade had a much bigger hand in this simply because of their size. Also, the sound that I am complaining about is somewhat characteristic of folkier musicians who have been signed to larger labels – see Emmy the Great for example. If they didn’t then I apologise to Rough Trade.
Fuck, you’d think I had the faintest idea what I was on about with all that, wouldn’t you. Don’t worry, I don’t, I am just trying to describe what I am hearing. More technically minded people should feel free to correct me.
I sort of feel that it gives the song a sort of sing-song-y feel.
The dynamic range loss due to compression makes her voice a little less subtle in the intonation, and you lose the sound of her breath.
Not to say this isn’t fantastic.
alela has made the record she wanted.. with no outside influence..she owns her recordings and licenses the music on.
she is an ambitious musician who wants to try different things..
i totally disagree with your comments about the bass and drums.. i think they add to it … especially on white and diamonds and to be still..
Well I am glad to know that it is her record in every sense – that’s a very good deal to have in the modern music world.
I definitely wouldn’t have people stand still, and certainly a thoughtless knock-off of Pirate’s Gospel Pt. II would have been a bit of a shame.
White as Diamonds is a bugbear with me though, because those crashing cymbals drive me nuts, while the Daytrotter version is crystal clear and gorgeous.
Mind you, I am starting to feel like the sort of dick who says that he likes Emily Dickinson but wishes she wouldn’t use so many dashes. I certainly am not arguing that this isn’t lovely. White as Diamonds is stunning, and Age Old Blue really does knock me sideways. Michael Hurley’s voice complements hers so nicely.
In general it’s gorgeous, basically. I’m just slightly frustrated because I am turning into some sort of annoying home-recording fundamentalist, and it’s not by choice, it’s just what I genuinely prefer to listen to.
Matthew, I am completely with you on the White as Diamonds track. I’ve always been a bit lukewarm to her stuff but that song was the one that really stood out for me, but now it’s been utterly mangled by those awful drums – it sounds like two songs mashed together. It makes me cringe.
I agree that it seems like a cynical attempt on her part to become radio 2 friendly or appeal to the mass-Dido-market or something. I just can’t believe that anyone could actually listen to the original version and think “i know what this song needs!” and then whack THAT on top. What a pity.
Age Old Blue is lovely though.
Hey, don’t tar me with that brush! Having met her I would be absolutely amazed if she was doing anything cynical. As a person she seemed absolutely sincere, and not someone to think about music in a commercial sense.
Given that I don’t like the production, I would simply describe it as someone developing themselves musically, just in a direction I am not as keen on. I find the songs as lovely as ever, and I can imagine other people really liking it now that the sound is a little fuller.
But personally, I am with you when you say that it sounds like two songs uncomfortably mashed together – fortunately, the original is sufficiently gorgeous that I still really like the song. Maybe I am just becoming too hostile to certain sounds in acoustic music.
I remember my English teacher when I was in 6th and 7th year saying that he hated the Pogues (whom I love) for ruining folk music because now every folk band has thrown in a bass guitar and a drummer. I love the Pogues, so I told him he was off his head, but there are times when what he said makes a little more sense.
But there’s no way she’s being cynical, I’d say. Just trying out new things in a way I’m not 100% convinced by. And I love the violin in the new version.
I’m saying nowt.
For fuck’s sake don’t hang me out to dry, you old fucker.
The drums on white diamond have no subtlety, which clashes with the feel of everything else. theyre pretty lumbering. a wee bit more imagination with the rhythm section might have been effective. i imagine a lot of folky folk get a bit bored with just guitar and voice and want to whack a bit o drum and bass in there to “switch it up” as my reggae friend says. so maybe in time the subtlety will return. but what do i know, ive never heard of this person before and have listened to just one song.
i like this…..what a voice
Randan – Well there must be a limit to how far you can really develop with just a guitar and vocals. Ultimately it must be very hard to explore new territory. And as you say, new territory requires learning – hardly sort of thing you can expect to do with perfection the first time.
Chutney – She has a gorgeous voice. And she uses it amazingly within the songs too. As I said in the review, just as she sounds like she’s about to get all uplifting she has this knack for changing direction and completely wrong-footing you.
If it is Alela’s decision to add a rhythm section to the tracks in that manner – then I respect that. I do understand the compulsion to expand your sound, and also the confidence you get playing with a band rather than performing solo.
However, I agree that in this case it hasn’t really improved the tracks, but I do feel priveleged to have been there to hear the performances she recorded last year, and suspect that the ‘bigger’ sound may appeal to a wider audience for her.
Yup, agree with all of that.
I think it sounds kind of good. I agree that it isn’t that subtle, but it certainly gives it some balls (A thing too few female songwriters have – boom boom!).
Your bug bear over production is a funny one though, as there is a reason people get paid for producing records, (in my opinion)it generally makes things sound much better. Bringing a sense of objectivity into the creative process is essential. Maybe it’s a bit like being a goalie, if you’re good no one should notice you, and if you make a mistake it’s blindingly obvious.
Anyhoo, you’re a baw.
Chutters old boy, how was the Big Apple?
I’m not against producers. Steve Lillywhite has produced some of the biggest (in every sense) bands around, and he is one of my musical heroes.
It’s more about appropriateness. Certain bands should be produced to sound like a stadium band, some to sound like bedroom experimenters, some like the kind of a band who would bring a jammed club to a sweaty frenzy. I just don’t think the production here suits the music at all.
The review has come out far more negatively than I meant it too, however. I do think this is a really good album, I just miss the amount of detail, intimacy and warmth that you get from the more minimal recordings.
fucking awesome…cheers..check out my facebook photo’s!!!
i think in general i agree with Jim…..i’ve never understood this oh it’s sounds so authentic, like it’s recorded in a barn with a corrugated iron roof and on a wet and rainy day, with a microphone to be found 3 miles down the road, approach to liking music.
Btw I’ve listened to both versions of the song in question…..and I reckon I prefer the ones with the drums and shit
My beef is not with recording quality. It is with crowded arrangements and compression.
….and the idea that it was the record company made her do it?
That was definitely something I was afraid of, but it turns out to be bollocks. It’s hardly rare though, especially when people are working with labels the size of Rough Trade, so it was hardly a wild assumption.
I’m just terrified of someone whose music I like so much getting the KT Tunstall treatment.
i think in fairness to labels i guess that they are putting a fair bit of money on the line…..and if i was doing likewise i would like a certain amount of input…really just to make sure that the act hasn’t just got pissed up for a couple of days then popped in to the local karaoke machine to record their latest masterpiece.
i reckon if this lady did that it would still sound better than most things out there. She is absolutely stunning!
Oh, and welcome back Tom
Tom – you’re absolutely right. I am having the same dilemma myself at the moment, particularly because the amount of money and time we have is so small. It means that I have to be pretty fucking certain I am working with something I think really is brilliant, before I can even consider investing.
None of this applies to the Alela Diane discussion, but often with bigger labels (including the larger indies) I just find a lot of the decision making to be a little lazy. They make assumptions on this or that being the way something ‘has to’ sound in order to achieve mainstream acceptance, and I am not sure I trust them.
I have worked with larger companies as a consultant and they make so many stupid decisions based on badly, badly flawed market research and odd internal memes which develop a life of their own, so I assume the record industry has a lot of its own received wisdom which is basically wrong.
Nicole Atkins, for example, sounds amazing with a really big sound. Billie Holiday, on the other hand, sounds better with a rougher recording. As with Alela Diane, it’s not like Billie Holiday doesn’t still sound amazing with a more polished sound, but I think a lot of the real magic can be easily lost that way.
It’s not even that I’m saying that the approach is wrong, it’s more that I think it is applied too broadly, too often.
Production aesthetics do seem to get people hot and bothered. People seem to prefer hi-fidelity or lo-fidelity.
As someone who writes and records songs at home as demos and in proper studios (when I can afford it), I have noticed a real issue with people hearing the first version of a song, getting to like it and then hearing the song as I intended it to be rendered.
Oftentimes, when they hear the version as I intended it after having got into the demo version, they don’t like the new version.
I don’t know what this means really other than either a) my “proper” recorded versions are rubbish or b) people often get attached to a particular version of a song (normally the version they hear first), which I suppose is why a cover version is hardly ever better than the original.
A cover version that is better than the original (in my opinion and probably because I heard it first) is “A New England” by Kirtsy MacColl, as opposed to the Billy Bragg original. That’s probably sacrilege, but I don’t care.
Oh, and Love is All Around is better by Wet Wet Wet than it is by the Troggs. This may not be true.
Heh heh. Okay, well, Toad, I will say this:
This discussion harks back to an old, old post of yours concerning compression & what it does to music. I think your brother chipped in because of his knowledge on the subject. I don’t like compression; I think it clouds arrangements (especially when they’re intricate or dash all over a register), muffles voices & generally smothers the personality of a piece of writing. I know why it is done & I understand why it is done, but I can’t abide the results.
I can’t speak for Alela’s (or whoever’s) decision to compress, but if the reasoning was anything to do with commerciality then I concede to the willingness to expand the audience &, therefore, sales. That doesn’t mean I like it.
Music of this nature needs to breath, needs to be organic &, like I always say, should sound woody – like you can hear each individual string or pluck or slide or whatever. Like Toad says, you have to have the silences in music like this, the resonance, the personality. Compression smooths everything out, albeit arbitrarily, & the result is a manufactured sheen fit only for coffee tables & dinner party wallpaper – you know, Katie Melua & her ilk.
It’s not unlistenable in the slightest, but when you have a direct comparison on your hands the difference is immense & I can entirely understand Toad’s for want of a better phrase) disappointment.
As for the additonal instruments, that’s a tough one. I’m with Toad, I’m afraid. Where the traditional group set works perfectly for, say, Samantha Crain (for this is the medium within which she writes), the sparsity of Alela’s writing, that isolation & intimacy, the up close & direct nature of her solo arrangements & vocals does not (for me) sit comfortably with a full band accompaniment. The fragility gets lost, & it was, afterall, the fragility that drew me to her in the first place.
Call my name, and I emerge from the lurk!
Compression is not bad. It is just a tool that can do a lot of damage, and must be wielded with care. This is not at all horrible. They could just use a little less of it.
It’s a matter of minuscule percentiles though. In this case a maybe a little much. It’s not KT Tungstall, and it’s not Johnny Cash. It’s somewhere in between.
The poor woman has found herself in the middle of a larger battle. Although, no one her has said they thing the album is anything but damn good.
I mean, the songs are damn good. Regardless of production.
I think Team Turnip makes an excellent point as well. If you start out with something rough and ready, or in Alela’s case just something quite spare, then people come to love your music on that basis irrespective of whether it’s better, worse, as you intended or what you had to make do with.
Give them something notably different, which this is in some key ways, if not all that different to less interested listeners (as Ben says, we are arguing about tiny differences here) and you do have to accept the risk that they will react.
I suppose the comparison would be if I started writing for the Guardian and had to stop swearing. In most ways I would assume that my writing style and general tone would be enough, but you can bet your life a lot of folk would really stop finding it as interesting. Especially if I had to stop doing things like calling the Beirut album shit.
Haven’t heard the whole record yet so I’ll reserve judgment, but I agree with DC that Alela Diane’s music has an organic “woodiness” to it that should be reflected in the production. A full band might help the live performance, though, because the hushed vocals and gently finger-picked guitar routine is kind of a tough sell outside the coffee house venues. I saw her play live last summer (she was opening for The Avett Brothers) in a pretty large room where it was just her and a guitar and she frankly had a bit of a hard time making herself heard. The Avett Brothers came on after her and just blew the roof off the place, even though their songs aren’t quite a match for hers. Perhaps the next record will be her Highway 61 Revisited.
there’s lots of really good opinions here… and its what these forums should be about…
i’ve worked with alela for 3 years now… i signed her for europe (via names) and watched her progress as an artist over that time..
this album will ‘jar’ with some people…its bound too as its more ambitious that the previous album… but.. it is not more commercial in any sense.. the pirates gospel has actually more commercial appeal (especially the title track) and i find so much intimacy in songs like ‘tatted lace’ ‘lady divine’ and ‘age old blue’
this album needs to be digested over a period of time.. like most people got into the last record,its early days..
i signed king creosote and the first album we put out (kc rules ok) was lambasted by his loyal fans… they thought he ’sold out’ since then the same people have all told me they think its a classic album..
but with both artists they were both doing what they wanted… trying new things ..but still being themselves.
Ah, now the King Creosote one is a fascinating one too. If you think people reacted emotionally to KC Rules OK, then you must have seen the reactions to Bombshell, which was in many ways a big, polished pop album – they were even worse.
Personally, this discussion goes back to the comment by teamturnip, again. Apart from his early Skuobhie Dubh and Khartoum Heroes stuff, I got into King Creosote via KC Rules OK, so I never had that reaction, because that was what I heard first, and I didn’t know any of the more low-fi versions of the songs.
When Bombshell came along, however, my reaction was more like the one you describe: ‘Holy shit, it’s a pop record!’ For that one I thought it was simple: he’s had no choice but to be ultra-low-fi for so long now, who are we to begrudge him the opportunity to explore his pop ideas. So actually, once you get your head round KC sounding all pop, it’s a really good album.
This goes back to DC’s point earlier about the direct comparisons, too. The only songs I knew from this record before it was released were the two acoustic versions of White as Diamonds and Dry Grass & the Shadows, one from the Daytrotter Sessions and one from mine.
So not only do I have a direct comparison, but I knew the session versions before these and had grown to love those versions. This makes it really hard to adjust to the fact that the version of the song you love is perhaps not the song as Alela herself hears it in her head, especially when you’ve already formed an attachment to the other versions.
You can also then directly compare the differences because you have the two side by side, to figure out exactly what has changed in this new version, and then you can bitch about it on the internet.
Luca – you’re right, this is a really good thread. You should see some of the other ones though. It’s rarely this considered around here I’m sorry to say
And, as a record label, to have KC Rules OK and Pirate’s Gospel and this in your catalogue… fucking hell mate, well done.
I agree with you Luca – artists obviously need to be able to try different things, and for someone like Alela, who inhabits such a particular place in music, it might just be more difficult for her to do something else.
She may also feel she wants to have more of an “Impact” when playing live (i.e. to people that aren’t necessarily already respectful fans) – it can be hard trying to make a room full of people listen to quiet songs when they don’t know them – maybe she wants the option.
On compression, I don’t see it as an all or nothing thing. You can use it in increments – a tiny amount of compression can be used to just pull things closer to a middle line but it doesn’t have to take away all the dynamics of a piece. If used properly/sensitively it can work well without taking away from the music – it’s over-use that dehumanises music.
I think it can be used if you can’t play your instrument brilliantly… and that is a lot more apparent on sparse songs (not saying that Alela Diane falls into this category at all).
You can also use it I think to separate out various tracks a little in a densely arranged song. Sufjan Stevens uses quite a lot of compression, not least on his voice.
Compression can work really well as an effect though too. I love the sound of Neil Young’s drums on Harvest and when I asked someone about getting that sound recently, they said that the drums were just heavily compressed. This may be an oversimplification but there is hopefully some truth in it.
It’s everywhere but it’s not always evil, it just needs to be used properly.
It’s certainly a difficult balance to strike.
As I touched upon before, it was a privelege to sit in the studio while Alela recorded those beautiful, hushed, haunting Toad Session tracks last year, full of warmth and resonance and the unmistakable “woody” feel of an acoustic recording people have referred to previously on this thread.
It’s down to those tracks and that experience that I’m a fan of Alela Diane and her work. Simple as that.
However, if I hadn’t been there that day – if Matthew hadn’t arranged the Toad Session – and these new recordings were the first I’d ever heard of Alela Diane, would I be keen to hear more from her?
Honestly?
No, not really.
It’s by no means bad music, but do I find it as stirring and engaging anymore? Hmmm…
I don’t pretend to speak for a particularly vast demographic, but for me these recordings hide enough of Alela’s remarkeable talent to allow her to vanish anonymously into the ranks of dozens of other nice girls with acoustic guitars who populate supermarket CD racks and backing tracks to TV adverts.
Alela will probably sell more copies of the album with it sounding like this, and accrue a larger fanbase, and a few fans will inevitably fall away too as her sound changes. However will all those new fans be lifelong, die-hard afficianoados? Or will they only stick around until someone else’s debut CD is on offer for £7 in Tesco’s?
But as long as it’s Alela’s decision, then I suppose that’s fine. She struck me as a headstrong, determined girl focussed on a achieveing a long and rewarding career in music, and I’d be surprised if she had handed over the reigns on that career to some record company marketing manager without a struggle.
We may be in danger of over-analysing this, though.
Is this really an indication of a rot setting in? Or is it just an artist harmlessly exploring the opportunities offered by the modern recording process during the early stages of her career?
I think time will tell, but I doubt Alela will completely abandon the unmistakable sound and deep sense of expression that clearly drives her.
What! What? and more fucking what!!
i think there is a little talking out of one’s arse going on here.
Last night I went to Fopp (music shop in Edinburgh) to get the Phantom Band’s debut cd, which is really good if you wanna know, and whilst i was perusing the shelves for other stuff to buy (finally ended up buy R30 dvd by Rush for a bargain £3) i listened to 3-4 songs of this beguiling and beautiful music….and when i went up to the counter i discovered it was the new album by a certain Alela Diane….maybe some people are just upset that she isn’t going to be there little secret anymore…..i dunno…..but I now know most of the chat on this post is now pish….cos from what I’ve heard over the past couple of days this woman is a star in the making.
And Bombshells is one of KC’s best….even Jonny P agrees with me!!!
i’ll see you all at the bar for a fight!!!!
“maybe some people are just upset that she isn’t going to be there little secret anymore”
The annoying thing about this stupid statement is that I know for a fact that you know this isn’t true. Unless you’re some sort of idiot of course.
I shouldn’t need to explain this to you, Tom, but I will if it’s really necessary.
You are coming to this music from scratch. As almost everyone here has said, it’s really good and no-one will be surprised that you love it.
This has already been discussed in terms of KC Rules OK – I came to that with almost no background or expectations, and I loved it, despite the less than enthusiastic of some of his more hardcore fans.
Pretty much everyone who is having any difficulty with this album at all is having it because they are already very familiar with her first record and her subsequent session recordings.
The whole point of most of this discussion is the direct comparison of these two, what has been added and why.
yes and yes…..but some of this chat makes it sound like she has turned into Duffy over night…..
I think bombshell is awesome … The funny thing about that particular time was that a well known journalist from the times took me aside and told me that bomshell was typical of major label intervention and was crap compared to kc rules ok …
Funny thing was … Kc rules ok production was a record company idea .. And bombshell was kennys choice of producer !
That was Jon Hopkins, was it not? I don’t know, it’s still not my favourite KC record, but then there’s a lot to choose from and I almost always prefer scratchy music, as you can tell. I think I love a lot of the songs on it, but the album as a whole entity I’d only call very good.
The point about what is whose decision is a funny one. I think a lot of the time people are quite loyal to bands they like, and if they dislike something they do, would rather blame it one someone else if there’s an option – like I did in this review.
As teamturnip was saying, a lot of times artists have to make do with what they can achieve, whilst the song in their heads is considerably different. This can be weird for fans, because in a sense you and the performer are experiencing two different songs.
As soon as a band signs to a bigger label, the limitations on their recordings are much reduced, of course. So people associate the polished sound and busier arrangements with bigger labels because the two are so strongly correlated, even though the reasons might be different to what people might expect.
yes… the extremely talented jon hopkins… i love his production.. people overlook the darker songs on Bombshell like ‘now drop your bombshell’ and the beauty of ‘admiral’ and the drama of ‘racket they made’ and ‘leslie’..
it is impossible to please everyone.. and music throws up lots of opinions.. and it should.
both kenny and alela will tell you that the reason the earlier recordings were quite ‘lo-fi’ was purely down to what was available to them at that time..
you’re also spot on with the familiarity of songs.. i released ‘tatted lace’ and ‘lady divine’ acoustically on an ep over two years ago.. so when alela gave me these new versions it took a while for them to sink in especially as i loved those older versions so much .. now after living with them within the album the older versions don’t seem fulfilled ..infact they sound like demo’s
anyway…
a great thread..
and btw the new KC album ‘Flick the V’s’ is coming out on domino and its brilliant.. and its a kinda cross between kc rules and bombshell ..
I am getting my deluxe version at Homegame. Are you going to be there? I should at least buy you a pint for being such a good sport.
…not sure yet, would love too but i took me about a month to get over the last one!
hey Matthew old boy…..fancy getting me a copy!!!
It took a month to get over the last Homegame?!..
Bugger – I’ve only booked the Monday off work!
I’ll have two copies, Chutney Boy, because Mrs. Toad and I both have Sooper Dooper tickets, so you can have one if you like – we don’t need two.
I’ve only booked the Monday off as well, and I’m thinking that Tuesday too would have been sensible.
I have now booked the Tuesday too.
you big girl Dylan
cheers Toad….
And what will you do be doing that weekend?
A spot of knitting, feet up in front of the fire? Cup of tea? Maybe a nice slice of freshly baked victoria sponge?
Hmmm?..
dancing drinking and eating…..only it won’t be in the East Neuk of Fife…pah fucking pah
well! I’m late to this discussion, damn!
two points:
1. Matthew, this discussion has gone so well, in my opinion, because you didn’t go and blast luca for having a different view from yours, as you knew who they were. (I was shocked, actually… then thought to myself, ah! inside information exists here). That set the tone for all the rest.
2. C&B has hit the nail on the head for me. I’m a total ignoramus when it comes to technical talk about music production and know nothing about this compression you all speak of, but… it’s the vocals and the vocal reach that determine the “appropriate” way a song should be recorded or preformed I think. At first when Matthew used that word “appropriate” I chafed at it. I hate thinking that there should be a value judgment in musical styles or genres or production or expression at all! But really, in all honesty when I think about it, there ARE ways that DO make more sense with the way people sing/perform.
I’m obviously familiar with the comparison with Samantha Crain and yes, the band that she plays with is brilliantly complimentary to her voice and her style and her essence as an artist.She howls and strums and stamps that little foot and raises a ruckus, only to fall down to a more subdued hush, but still a rather loudly audible hush.
And then I think of the classics of my childhood… Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Nina Simone… strong female vocalists, not “fragile” (do not read that as a negative — it’s not meant that way) styled at all. And yet they often sang with simple accompaniment and with simple production. My theory of “appropriate” accompaniment is blown to hell!
So, is it the production style or the disappointment of not being what we expected that is the real rub here? I know I’m repeating some of what’s been said, and yes Matthew we do blame the labels for our disappointment. But, I do think there’s an element of “maybe some people are just upset that she isn’t going to be there little secret anymore”. Sorry, but I do! xoxox
Don’t worry, Tart, It’s not real. Ben made it up.
HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! !HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! !HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME! HOMEGAME!
A CD is already pretty flat anyway – how could you realistically compress it any further?
Tart, that ‘our little secret’ thing is just fucking silly, especially on a site where everyone so gleefully congratulated Broken Records on their deal with 4AD, which is far more big and shiny than Alela Diane’s situation.
It’s a matter of taste. There are ranges of tools a producer or engineer can apply to the audio tracks within a song to change the way it sounds – compression is just one of them.
At one end of this spectrum sits the AD Daytrotter Session. At the other end sits the likes of KT Tunstall, whose recorded music has been tortured to within an inch of its life and consequently sounds absolutely fucking horrible. That’s the kind of stuff that gets called over-produced, because the producer has fucked with the natural sound so much it becomes unlistenable, if you don’t like that kind of thing.
Bear in mind, that people are drawn towards mp3s blogs largely for the music, for the most part, so most people posting here will like the kind of under-produced, basic, simple music which I tend to like best.
So when I hear someone like Alela Diane, who most people here love, moving from a basic sound to a more layered, complicated sound there is a fear that this is the direction she is moving in in general – ie aiming to be like KT Tunstall. This means that someone I love might start making music in a style which I genuinely do not enjoy listening to.
And I don’t often go off at people for disagreeing – just if they say fucking stupid things like that ‘our little secret’ bollocks.
I’ve never even interacted with Luca before today, but I guessed he was at least involved with the band, because he commented so quickly after the review was published and because he clearly had a lot of inside knowledge.
Oh I still think that’s nonsense, sorry. “Our little secret” in a broader sense means that she sounds the way we heard her first, she sounds like “our Diane” and we like her that way. So that when she begins to change her sound it’s interpreted as “selling out” or having been “manipulated” by some evil entity called “production” or “label” that wants to market her for the masses. See what I mean here? I’m not accusing this group of people of claiming ownership over a particular artist, I’m making a broader statement about how fans react to artists and the progression of new music from the demo sound to the hit album.
And, as for what blog readers love, I’m not quite sure your appraisal is spot on there either. Perhaps I’m being contrary just because I like doing that to you. Perhaps I am contrary because I listen to mainstream music as well as the bedroom folk stuff the you enjoy so much (our connecting point, indeed!). But I think I speak for at least 10 other readers here, outside of the Edinburgh gang, who might not feel that “production” = torture.
Point in fact, I still love Joan Osborne’s Righteous Love even though now that I listen to it, I see how (over)produced it is compared to the raw energy of her first live album and of other artists sent my way, and on this site. I love it for other reasons. Yes, a matter of taste, but taste for what? My taste for what she sounds like musically sits alongside the songwriting, lyrically and melody-wise — I like it even if it would sound better with a bedroom production.
just sayin’
Tart
Christ. I think we’ve covered this.
let’s all agree to disagree and have a piece of that victoria sponge that dylan mentioned.
as for where i stand in this debate, i’m wholeheartedly with mr bear.
Surely there’s a t-shirt in this somewhere?
actually, that sounded rather dismissive. i think it’s really great to see people having such a lengthy discussion over this – which can be nothing but a compliment to Alela, surely?
Alela is and will be as close to KT as gillian welch and emmylou Harris are .
The end
There are a few strong contenders for T-Shirts over at Gillian Welch’s wikipedia entry.
How about Gillian Welch pronounces her first name with a hard G or perhaps Gillian Welch discovered bluegrass music through the “mountain soul” stylings of The Stanley Brothers,
Alela is and will be as close to KT as gillian welch and emmylou Harris are.”
Now, you see, I’d agree. But a friend of mine saw KT play a solo acoustic in-store and said she was surprisingly good. And I find myself sort of wondering whether or not, if you stripped all the crap out of it, I might like it a lot better.
Ooooh – indie heresy!
OK, so I’ve listened to the record about six times today and it’s fucking brilliant. Ab. So. Lute. Ly. Brilliant. After the first couple of listens I’ve pretty much stopped caring about the differences between this record and Pirate’s Gospel. Perhaps it’s the novelty (although I’ve heard about half the songs before) but I’m pretty sure that the tunes on this record are, if anything, stronger than the ones on Pirate’s Gospel. My recollection is that Pirate’s Gospel was written very quickly, during a time of personal ferment. The result is some pretty inspired writing, but I think she’s really developed some chops in the intervening 3+ years, and if you ask me the new record shows an improved command of her songwriting craft.
In short, I’m going to buy it in vinyl.
I did not make it up!
And it’s not just compression. It’s FFT filters, de-essers.
Tart, just because something is wispy doesn’t make it weak. The vocals on Janis Joplin are very thin sounding by today’s standards but that is also what given them that harsh edge. Even if you don’t know the name of the tool, you obviously understand the difference in ‘feel’ of a record.
Look, compression isn’t a bad thing at all, but like anything these audio tools are just that. There is not a low-fi switch on the console, there are a hundred little things that ’smooth out’ a record. It’s just knowing where to stop smoothing because you are damaging the music. A point which is different for every band, and every genre.
It always amuses me when I hear someone describe an engineers ’sound’. Some guys have a real ’sound’ like Phil Spector. Yet, you can listen to two Steve Lillywhite records and they sound very little alike. You see no one cares what the engineer sounds like, people buy records for the artist. An artist has a sound. It is the studio/production company’s job to respect that. Sure you can’t put someone on a CD without altering it in some way but, ultimately it is about making a CD sound as like you would want the artist to sound.
A nice example of it is Sparrow and the Workshop. I mixed a few tracks for Matthew of their Toad Session, and turned it into a ‘woman with guitar song’, and completely under-emphasised the drums because I’d never really heard them so I had no idea how their songs were meant tot sound. It was quite rotten to be honest, and didn’t sound anything like the band.
Matthew mentioned this earlier. Some bands sound like they belong in a stadium and need that big in-your-face sound, some belong in a club and need a rough out of control sound, and some belong in a living room strumming a guitar. This is obviously a pithy was of summing it up but ultimately it is up to the producer to achieve the feeling in a CD that represents the artist singing. Who is to say KT wouldn’t sound more honest if she sounded less produced.
I actually heard a ‘lo-fi’ vs ‘hi-fi’ two CD set by an American called Gavin DeGraw and one was really quite good and the other is title music for a teen show called One Tree Hill. If you can imagine…
And let me re-iterate my feeling that I really like these songs. I think they could be a little less polished but, I loved Pirates Gospel so I’m biased. I will certainly buy this album, and I’ll play it to death and enjoy it.
Tart. Toad. Get A Fucking Room.
I am going to ask Neil from Meursault if he will let Ben do a ‘massiively over-produced XFM mix’ of a portion of The Furnace when we release that as a single. Then we can compare that with the Toad Session, with the final version and with the initial demo version that went on the first couple of versions of the album. I think this would be a really, really interesting exercise, although Neil might take some persuading to let us fuck with his music that much.
Oh! Two rather long interchanges and I’ve been demanded to shut it, DC, pffft! Only if you get to watch I suppose… you old perv.
Ben, no, I didn’t mean to imply that wispy was weak. And in folk music especially there is a celebration of the timbre of a woman’s voice in it’s intricacies much as in the way that Janis interpreted the blues in her time. My point was that the accompaniment might perhaps be appropriately scaled to how much one wants to allow that intricacy to be heard. I can see your point about weakness – was I meaning that some vocalists simply couldn’t project across a crowded room? But it’s most likely more to do with proper equipment and set up, and choosing the venue wisely. That also is a result of talent and experience. Heaven knows how Janis managed to sing at all half the time!
And I do love these songs, and all the rest that I’ve heard of Alela Diane. I love them in all the forms, I really don’t feel there’s a “purer” or “more honest” version. I’m very sorry to have missed her tonight – it sold out way before I got to it! That in itself is great news for her and Chicago does love and appreciate folk music, you all should know
Matthew, I hope you do get Neil to allow it. What a great discussion that would provoke! I’ll promise to be on time for it, and not make you re-hash so much, but I’ll still cross ya xoxoxo
Mr Bear shut it
i love the Tart
Now see, that’s interesting to mention The Furnace, because I for one do prefer the earlier version.
Is that just because I had formed an emotional bond with the earlier version; and when that bond forms – with regards to any piece of art – between the artwork and the audience, we are all capable of developing an irrational sense of possession over the emotional response we experience – and to almost disregard the artist?
Was I then just a bit disgruntled when some clown came along and messed about with my unique emotional experience, my ‘possession’ if you will; even if that clown was Neil himself, who is perfectly entitled to present his song to the world however the hell he likes, in precisely the same manner as Alela Diane is entitled to present her songs to us however the hell she likes?
I’d sort of agree with you Dylan, I wasn’t that chuffed with the ‘real’ version either, having heard the demo version first (which none of the band like). I’ve heard the updated version so often now that I no longer have that, but funnily enough my initial reaction to that version was similar to here: ‘Oooh, too many things happening.’
Mind you, I’ve heard enough different versions by now that I really have no idea if I actually prefer any of them.
It took me so long to ‘get’ the Meursault album….this is after seeing them live on a fair few occasions and loving them…..the album just felt so cold and empty compared to the live experience….
the backlash begins…
You know, I used to really like Meursault..
Now they just remind me of Coldplay.
Shut up, Bearface.
I got all of it immediately, live and recorded, but the new Furnace was odd. I had a very definite ‘that’s not what The Furnace sounds like!’ moment.
I’m over it now though.
CUNTS
You and Alela, mate. Victims of the same audience possessiveness.
We hate you both now you’re not ‘our little secret’ anymore.
oh and tom don’t know if i’d mentioned this before but….HOMEGAME!
who wants to see my little secret!!!
Yeah, Tom..
You should come to Homegame, Snowplaymeursaultcoldpatrol will be playing!
you know the little secret thing was a bit of a throw away line…..now you’re going on about it so much…..i might start to believe it!!!
Tom’s jar of chutney avatar looks nearly as good on its white background as my little red car.
All the other square box avatars are just rubbish.
How do you get an avatar, I probably dont deserve one, just curious really?
What a good discussion. I don’t really ever like to write anything negative, but I think there’s an aspect to this that no-one has mentioned.
To me, it’s not as if Alela Diane has gone all U2 on us with huge, reverby production amplified to within an inch of its life. If anything, the guitar and fiddle sound better than on the previous records, with enough of the natural dynamic of the clicks and scrapes left in to give it the character it needs.
I don’t even think the issue is that there are drums on the track now, it’s primarily HOW they’re played and produced. Imagine if a drummer in the style of Jim White or Thomas Wydler had played – all brushes and interesting rhythms. For me, that would have really made the track, and crucially I think we’d avoid a lot of the “over-produced” backlash that’s going on. Instead we get what’s effectively a “Casio 4/4 Rock Beat 1″ started a third of the way through the song, possibly way too loud.
The songs remain as lovely as ever, I just can’t understand why a more sympathetic drummer wasn’t used, because if they had, I think we’d avoid a lot of this over-produced criticism.
Or maybe I’m an idiot and know nothing..
If you create a wordpress account, you can add bits and pieces to your profile that way (Avatars, weblinks etc.) then when you post comments while logged-in your avatar will appear.
Don’t make too much of a fuss though or Matthew will assign you something deeply inappropriate.
Ocht, I’m really not bothered. Just curious really! If I ever get round to it I might make a pic of Michaels face, actually no. I’d do it to annoy him but I think he’d get a bit of a kick from it really.
“I don’t even think the issue is that there are drums on the track now, it’s primarily HOW they’re played and produced. Imagine if a drummer in the style of Jim White or Thomas Wydler had played – all brushes and interesting rhythms. For me, that would have really made the track, and crucially I think we’d avoid a lot of the “over-produced” backlash that’s going on. Instead we get what’s effectively a “Casio 4/4 Rock Beat 1″ started a third of the way through the song, possibly way too loud.”
Of course – that’s a really good point. I really just do not think those drums are any good, the cymbals in particular. Early versions of Dry Grass & the Shadows had a similar problem with the bass drum.
That’s another issue with building an acoustic solo act into a band: things become infinitely more complicated very quickly and managing it all must be very, very difficult. Never mind finding musicians as good as you to actually do all the jobs.
“That’s another issue with building an acoustic solo act into a band: things become infinitely more complicated very quickly and managing it all must be very, very difficult”
There are ways around it…hmm..
Yeah, and stealing your drummer seems to be the mode du jour. Keep an eye on him!
Yeah.. And your ukelelist/glockenspeilist.
He seems to be cropping up everywhere too.
I’m sure I saw him on the Brit Awards the other night.
Sometimes, when a joke isn’t working, there’s no shame in just quietly dropping it, y’know.
No, no..
I thought I’d seen a photo somewhere. Here it is..
I’m usually very sensitive to “over-production”, but in this case I disagree. What I loved about the sparse style of The Pirate’s Gospel was that it didn’t sound like anything at that time. Well, since then I’ve received many albums and mp3s in that same bare bones folk vein. Which I like, but you start to want some variety.
I personally love that To Be Still has just a slight polish on it (compared to mainstream records, it’s still austere). The feeling I get when I listen to it is that Alela (or whoever influenced her) was going for a Judee Sill kinda vibe, and I think it really suits her voice.
I certainly wouldn’t want her to go any further, her songs don’t need any heavier veneer. And there are plenty of other singers that I’ve seen live and then dislike the production of their studio albums, so perhaps my opinion would be different if I’d had your experiences with her. But I think it is good that, at least for one album, she tried something new. It’s one of my favorite albums of the year so far.
Btw, I recommend Laura Gibson’s new album if you haven’t heard it yet. She doesn’t quite sound like Alela, but there’s something about Laura, Alela, and Marie Siouxx that reminds me of the others.
Laura sounds like she’s sawing wood as a sex aid on her new record; it’s fucking mesmerizing.
<blockq
But wouldn’t you rather have a drummer in your band who aspired to achieve such a high degree of creative artistic expression, even if they hadn’t attained any such level yet, rather than a cold and anonymous session tub-thumper?
Umm, no. Not if they couldn’t pull it off.
Cold and anonymous session tub-thumper? You cruel bastard. These people are flesh and blood. They work so hard, and what do they get for their trouble? The tipsy, slightly non-grammatical ravings of a sleep-deprived Welshman, that’s what.
Sawing wood AS a sex aid? I’m gonna need a visual on that one. Honestly befuddled xx
No, you do NOT want a visual on that one.
I am no expert by any means, I just know what I like. I know what moves me. Muruch mentions Laura Gibson, you all seem to love Alela Diane………As to KT Tunstall she is amazing. I have seen her live twice and she is a true artist. Check out her acoustic extravaganza album. She is the real thing. Alela, I am in love with her.I would trade ten million Celine Dions to hear her sing Every Path just once!!! I am blown away by the entire album To Be Still. I also like Laura Gibson. There is something so heartfelt and real in the essence of their music………it transcends “folk” and “country”.