There is No ‘They’ About It
[Disclaimer: this post has been written with no academic authority whatsoever and, perhaps more importantly, no real psychological or sociological training or background, so if you really, seriously know about this stuff I would appreciate you enlightening me. This is just a 'best guess as I see it' sort of a post, so please don't think I'm setting myself up as an authority.]
There has been some chat going on in the comments section of the Gaza Appeal post which I thought worth elevating to a post all of its own. When I rant about religions and anti-Darwinism and mysticism and so on one of the things I inevitably end up shouting at everyone is that as a species and as individuals we have a lot of misplaced vanity. We think we are special, and we aren’t. I don’t mean it in a mean, pompous way, but I firmly believe that human beings have no real conception of how mechanical, how average, how just like everyone else we all really are.
One of the key comments on the Gaza post was about fundamentalists and fundamentalism and it betrays an important and very dangerous mistake almost all of us make when faced with this sort of behaviour. It is the ‘they just aren’t like us, they can’t be reasoned with and ‘we’ are nothing like them’ mistake. There are people who are mentally ill, and there are psychopaths and so on, I am not denying that, but for all these people may also be fundamentalists (of whatever stripe), the characteristic of fundamentalism is not an illness. It is simply a human behaviour to which we are all prone and which can be relatively easily induced by certain social conditions. We all like to think that we’re special, that we’re immune, but the vast, vast majority of us would simply be wrong in making that assumption.
Did anyone read about the teen suicide epidemic in the South Pacfic which was described in the Tipping Point? Lots of otherwise normal teenagers started committing suicide for no obvious reason, until the phenomenon reached something akin to epidemic proportions. How about the high school experiment The Third Wave, where the behaviours of Nazi Germany were so easily recreated, in order to demonstrate just how easy it is to get human beings to do insane and awful things.
Given that the whole discussion was brought about by discussion of Israeli and Islamic terrorism, it is interesting to note that MI5 has recently concluded that, in terms of domestic Islamic terrorism, there is no simple ‘they’ category. In fact, the one defining characteristic of domestic Islamic terrorists is that they have no defining characteristics. They are simply normal people, and in fact are often not all that religious. It would appear, then, that we are not discussing a kind of person at all, but more accurately a set of circumstances which would make extraordinary behaviour seem perfectly rational to a normal person.
Apart from simply being wrong, I think this blanket ‘they can’t be reasoned with’ approach is also very dangerous. This is a phenomenon to which we are all prone, and yet is nevertheless reassuringly rare, so to dismiss it in this way is to deny ourselves the opportunity to prevent it. It’s not something that is going to magically go away as a generation of people with a particularly antiquated mindset die out, it is a social phenomenon which is caused by a set of circumstances, and if we want to solve this issue then we have to identify those circumstances. And by that I don’t mean the Easy Liberal Answer of jobs and prosperity, because that ignores the fact that a lot of people who you would consider to be dangerous fundamentalists are prosperous, well-educated and middle class.
But turning fundamentalism of any sort into something ‘they’ do is simply to deny the real problem in order to focus on a patently false caricature, which is dangerous for everyone.
Supergrass – What Went Wrong (In Your Head)
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That was a really interesting read mate. I’m not one for getting into these kind of discussions, simply because they are so emotive and things can be said and taken out of context. I dwell on these issues a lot and often moments in time relating to these kind of things shape the lyrical content of kays tunes.
Anyways, thats by the by, my point was that I think this is well written, well thought out and that there’s a whole lot of truth in what you say.
The point I was trying to make over there was nothing to do with categorising people into specific groups or convenient pigeon-holes, it was about trying to relate to a completely alien frame-of-mind.
I don’t believe that fundamentalism of the nature we’ve been discussing can be addressed, or stamped out, or cajoled, or eradicated by force. Much like you’re suggesting above, it’s a condition of nature.
The hypothetical last fundamentalist standing would go down fighting, not only believing in his cause, but also believing he had the will, the right and the god-given ability to annihilate everyone who didn’t agree with him.
That second paragraph is where I disagree. If it can be created, which I think the above-referenced articles hint very strongly that it can, then it can surely be, if not eradicated, then at the very least reduced or ameliorated.
I’m not saying it would be easy, but statements like that second paragraph are exactly the kind of closed-door argument which make it guaranteed that we won’t deal with it. If we approach it with that attitude then we’ve lost before we even start.
If you get stung by a wasp, what’s the best response?
Go “Ow, bugger!” and then get on with your day, or go and find the wasp’s nest and poke at it with a stick?
I’m not sure argument by irrelevant analogy really works. Unless you really are advocating we collectively stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away.
I am not talking about marching into the middle of an Al Qaeda training camp or some looney church in the States, sitting down in the middle, and asking everyone if they have happy memories of their childhood.
I am talking about trying to understand what issues of power and control (or whatever the hell it is) seem to trigger this kind of behaviour and then trying to address them.
I am not talking about marching into the middle of an Al Qaeda training camp or some looney church in the States, sitting down in the middle, and asking everyone if they have happy memories of their childhood
madly, some people do just that…
I’d learn a very swift lesson about mouthing off about topics which I don’t really understand, I suppose. Although I might not be afforded very much time to actually enjoy this newfound wisdom.
Yep. Pretty much nailed it there.
Are you advocating any of the alternatives having seen the herculean fuck-ups they have consistently proved to be down the years?
Seriously, what else can we do apart from get all Western and compassionate about it? The only result of which has proved to be adding fuel to the fire.
Sorry this bit doesn’t scan right – the tone doesn’t read like it sounded in my head:
Let me have another crack at it.
Better.
the fuck up happened years ago….we are only ‘reaping’ the rewards right now…..what can we do….fuck do i know….let people live their lives.
simple, utopian and naive…..yeah…but what else do we have
Friends, Chutney; hours & hours & hours of Friends
Blimey where did the jingly jangly stuff go?
Yeah – about 2,000 years ago.
I don’t understand why we’re getting our collective knickers in a twist about it now. I think it’s terribly naive to believe we can solve it any time soon.
no i think more of 60 years ago
Mr. Dyran, did you not read what I said?
Friends, hours & hours & hours of Friends.
With, perhaps, a dash of Will & Grace.
it is naive, but what other option is there?
apathy?
there’s quite enough of that in the world…give me naive optimism.
besides, change on this scale can take decades.
I’m no theologian – but surely you can trace much of it back to the division of the Abrahamic faiths.
You could even go as far as to say that ultimately led to the troubles in Northern Ireland – let alone the middle east.
yeah it’s all one line of causality, but there are different pages and chapters to here tale…..and i think one reason that the argument (of this all started long ago) is trumpeted is that people don’t what to realise their own accountability in the whole scheme of things.
Or you could just say it’s all a load of old bollocks that deserves no more attention from educated and enlightened people such as ourselves.
I find it terribly that people are dying because of disagreements over the details in a bunch of ancient fairy stories, but when the people arguing have the frame of mind of obstinate children, but also hold rockets and guns, how can you possibly interfere without making matters worse?
Or you could just say it’s all a load of old bollocks that deserves no more attention from educated and enlightened people such as ourselves.
I find it terribly depressing that people are dying because of disagreements over the details in a bunch of ancient fairy stories, but when the people arguing have the frame of mind of obstinate children, but also hold rockets and guns, how can you possibly interfere without making matters worse?
regardless of my own views, i think it is a little too easy just call them ‘ancient fairy stories’ Dylan.
Okay, so what else are they?
They’re a reflection of human experience and guidance regarding good behaviour versus bad behavior. True?
But isn’t the same true of Hans Christian Andersen?
dylan, i think you should really be careful about what you go about branding fairy stories. that could inflame a situation rather than help. so, we’ve established not to send you as a peace envoy.
Mr. Dyran you are getting dangerously close to what some refer to as blasphemy & have no qualms about issuing spurious death sentences over…
Bring it on! I should think the this website’s already got a few fatwas registered against it!
What’s funny is I’ve actually got a lot of respect for the original intent of the texts and the teachings. It’s largely sensible stuff about living your life wihth care and consideration for others when you apply a sensible interpretation to it.
I mean, I hate it when my neighbour covets my oxen. I see him sometimes peering out his back window. “Leave my oxen alone you old pervert!”
Anyway, what I don’t have respect for is the corruption that has been applied to them over the millennia, in the grubby pursuit of power, control and oppression.
If you ask me, this isn’t about debating the possible existence of a divine entity, as that’s an argument that one can only have internally with oneself. That’s simply faith and I won’t tread on anyone’s toes there.
However, what isn’t a matter of faith, but a matter of demonstrable evidence, is the corruption of the texts and their message over the past 2,000 or so years.
That’s what people are fighting and dying for, and that’s what I don’t respect.
where is the Friday fives….i’m bored of being serious
Me too!
I think we should have Five Friday Fatwas
Five Friday Commandments.
1. When were you last in a house of bondage, and who had to come and drag you out?
2. Carved images. Love or loathe?
3. What have you done today that’s really going to piss off your great-great grandchildren?
4. Is it okay to go ten-pin bowling on a Sunday?
5. Which do you like best, your neighbour’s ox, donkey or female servant?
These will be stored for next week. I like these very much. Good work.
I know, I know, I should just let this rest. But I can’t, sorry. my understanding of these situations is that it is only the lowest strata of the population who actually believe these struggles have anything at all to do with religious stakes. Ask yourselves what is really at stake for a region like Gaza or N. Ireland or Afganistan? we can’t group any single answer together around religion anymore than we can around simple economic forces. If any vague answer makes sense for this era of military struggles we face it would be nationalism-which has always corraled religion to it’s cause.
And Matthew, yes I do also believe that humans are a whole lot more “mechanical” than we care to admit. Those famous studies about how easily we are led to go along with the crowd, show me how much we, as a species need to feel solidarity with one another. It’s almost as if we were herd animals deep down and society is the mitigating factor to keep us from making decisions based on that instinct. afterall, it’s things like families, and for some, church, and ethics and law (in a grand sense) that force us to make decisions with the future generations in mind and not just our herd at hand. Shutting up now, promise xx
There’s the question.
What really is at stake?
What really is at stake when you’re talking in evolutionary terms such as millenia?
Bugger all.
That’s what.
Now shall we be thankful for our blessings, make something nice for tea and listen to some good tunes?
the part of the universe that thinks it’s me got all worried about death and the end of things after reading all these posts about religion and doom and stuff, but then remembered that existence is mostly all crap anyway.