Tunnel Vision
Whilst I’m still constantly amazed by how many obscure indie bands I’ve never heard of and how many legendary ones I’ve barely ever listened to (Sonic Youth and the Jesus & Mary Chain for example), I still assume that my depth of knowledge must be pretty impressive when it comes to left field independent music.
I suppose it’s almost inevitable that, as a consequence of this depth, my breadth of awareness has suffered an awful lot. I look back on my Best of the Year lists for 2004 and 2005 and there are bands like the Killers, Bloc Party and Maximo Park on there. Now, I make absolutely no apology for that whatsoever. All three of those albums are brilliant pop records, and a little more in the case of Bloc Party, however badly they followed it up. There’s no shame in liking stuff which happens to be popular, and I still listen to all of that music with enjoyment.
So what’s my point? Well, look at my Top 10 for 2007 (Part 1 & Part 2) and 2008 (Part 1 & Part 2), and the difference is huge. Grinderman are big and famous, and the Twilight Sad have done pretty well here and there. Umm.. Elvis Perkins is on XL I guess. But there’s basically no-one on either list who your average punter in the street would be likely to have even heard of, never mind like.
More noticably, however, there is no pop. I know that all music is essentially pop, just for slightly different audiences, but there’s nothing that I would describe as populist. A lot of those albums do work really well as pop albums, of course they do, but Maximo Park seem to have the sole goal of writing irrepressible pop tunes, and they were all over the radio, as were the Killers and Bloc Party. I don’t even know which bands would be the equivalent of that today. Who is all over XFM and 6Music and Radio1 all at the same time? I guess Vampire Weekend count, possibly. And, erm… I don’t know. I actually have no idea. Who fills the Corn Exchange these days?
There are loads of reasons, of course. Partly bands becoming so broadly popular seems less frequent these days, people’s listening habits are changing and how people access music is changing. And, as Campfires & Battlefield said on a previous thread on this topic some time ago: who cares?
I am not apologising, of course: back then I listened to lots of music I loved, now I do the exact same thing. It’s just interesting how far away from the mainstream I find myself wandering. And if you think I’m exaggerating just imagine what the difference in total album sales between the old lists and the new lists would be – that more than anything drives the point home, as far as I am concerned.
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The Killers – Believe Me Natalie
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An interesting post, and many points I find myself agreeing with. One of the things about writing a blog is that you get sent a whole lot of music and therefore the opportunity to hear an awful lot of stuff that you might not do if you weren’t writing the blog. (The only other time I got to hear as much new music was when I worked for Fopp. Somewhat inevitably, when your day job does not involve listening to music, you just don’t the chance to hear as much). I remember being very excited when I first got sent a CD to review; now I’m still pleased to get them, but I get sent quite a few. And there’s nothing wrong about liking popular bands, it’s just that some of the debuts I liked earlier on about four or five years ago -Bloc Party, Razorlight, the Killers, and Kaiser Chiefs have not been followed up by albums that I loved as much as the debuts. Good to see that stuff you’ve written about has caught the imagination I guess, and with the Twilight Sad about to release their new album, it’s kinda cool to be getting to write about it all.
I think a lot of people will have heard of the Felice Brothers and Langhorne Slim (and possibly shearwater) at least.
And it’s good to look at less popular bands and broaden your musical horizons (oh, dear). The popular stuff is always there in the background – people are aware of it, but you kind of have to introduce less main-stream music.
Plus, if you can find the lyrics online, it’s a fairly good sign that whoever you’re listening to is not totally shrouded in obscurity.
I was thinking about this the other night; I had a radio show on Fresh Air from ‘00 – ‘03 and it was pish. Dreadful music. I just couldn’t afford much new music and relied on friend’s CD collections, or those in the studio. The internet’s changed music distribution irrevocably and allowed me to focus down my twee folk indie-pop obscurism route with aplomb. I’d love to have a radio show now, it would be AMAZING. Every now and again I wish my iPod were filled with pop hits, but Spotify means I don’t even need to own that major label crap any more.
you blog types make me sick
I don’t know.
I was in the pub last night with six of my mates, ‘Regular Joe’ type city centre office workers, nice guys who listen to music in an average, mainstream kind of a way, and I’ll guarantee that they will have all heard of The Killers, Bloc Party and Maximo Park – they’d even be able to sing you a few of their songs – but none of them would have heard of Felice Brothers, and Langhorne Slim or Shearwater.
Those acts might have a high profile in alternative music spheres, but they aren’t on anybody’s high-street mainstream radar.
i do think that the felice brothers have made an impact…..but jesus i’m struggling with the other 2 so i doubt anybody with just a passing interest would have heard of them
I’m with Dylan on this – I just don’t think a normal person with a healthy but fairly passive relationship with music would have heard of any of those three. Some might have, maybe, but in general I wouldn’t bet on it.
The Felice Brothers got widespread press in The Observer, Guardian, Mojo, Q, The Word…..thats the point i was making….dunno if people would have heard the actual music…but they name will be kinda recognisable.
and anyway i find it kind of patronising to say that someone is….
or is….
i had a chat with someone in my work yesterday, who i might put into one of the above groups….but hey she has an amazing knowledge of proper Americana music, i was floored….how do we know what people listen to?
it takes all sorts
anyway did anyone else see Regina Spector on Jools last….fucking awesome….the girl has took her time but the song she played last night ‘Blue Lips’ blew me away.
I am Nothing
It isn’t condescending at all, don’t be daft. That is my relationship with movies, for example. Passive, enthusiastic to a degree, but not all that knowledgeable.
i maybe wrong but i do thing it is/was passively implied, regardless…..and we can bitch about it later.
I gave away my copy of the Meursault cd to some poor musically uneducated slob, any chance of getting another….FOC?
The Shearwater album was good, and made my end of year list, I suspect that one of the things is that no matter how much you try it is not going to be possible to hear everything that has been released. I suppose in this day and age, if you can upload it onto your iPod and iTunes recognises the songs then it cannot be that obscure.
It wasn’t passively implied, it was actively implied.
We have to accept that we exist outside the mainstream of music listeners with our passionate enthusiasm for grass-roots music.
In as much, we’re as odd a bunch as model railway enthusiasts, stamp collectors or those kids that soupe-up Vauxhall Novas.
The majority of people who listen to music can hold no more a detailed or enlightened discussion on the Felice Brothers, then any of us lot could on which skirts and spoiler kit is best to fit to a 1998 Fiesta.
i think i’ve just been sick
I’m of two minds on this “condensation” issue; yes, we’re obsessive oddities (but for the love of god don’t claim that we appreciate better music) and yet also as Tom says, don’t judge a book by its cover. Probably best to tally up record sales and concert attendance and avoid ancedotal evidence then. However, most of my friends who aren’t indie fans simply want music they already know the words to, which explains the popularity of all those classic rock/oldies stations and the repetition found on top 40 radio.
Let us not rule out the fact that the biggest blogs focus on pop/hip-hop/dance music as well as Indie.
Dylan – you weren’t actively implying condescension of any sort were you? That’s what I was taking issue with.
Chutters – sick or not, he’s right. People have a limited amount of time or energy for hobbies and interests. We spend a massively disproportionate amount of ours on music, which means that we almost certainly end up having a greater depth of knowledge on the subject than the vast majority of people.
Your case was different, you just didn’t realise that the lass in question was something of a music fan on the quiet.
I really enjoy movies, but I don’t pay them that much attention and my knowledge level is very low. I’d have no problem with a movie buff of any stripe calling me a casual fan, and claiming greater knowledge because it would be true. Even if I was more familiar with a genre like sci-fi because they avoided it like the plague.
It’s not condescending because there is no kind of judgment implied, other than recognising that people apply their creative energies to different things.
there is a underlying discourse going on here….thats all i’m saying.
Underlying discourse? What?
It all depends on how you think about it really, if you feel all hoity toity (not that I’m saying anyone inparticular does) then thats just shit really, as pretty much everyone here has said different people have different interests, it’s no biggie!
sorry i went a bit academic there…..
*can I retract my statement “it’s no biggie!” and replace it with “ain’t no thing but a chicken wing”
No. No you can’t. That would be a step too far.
I’m not being condescending toward people who aren’t as obsessive about grass roots music as we are, or toward the interests and pursuits anyone else might be passionate about.
Most people drive a car and to most it’s little more than a method to get from A to B. Okay, so you might choose a car you’re comfortable in, and you might choose a colour you like, and you might go for a sporty or luxury model if you’re feeling extravagant; but only a very small minority of car drivers spend every spare minute of their spare time souping their car up or polishing it or going to motoring fairs and rallies..
It’s the same with music, the majority of people listen to music of some sort, but for the majority it’s fine to just slip on a CD they’re cofortable with. They like how it sounds and how it makes them feel, and every year or two they head down to the nearest sports stadium and have a great time watching Bon Jovi or U2, and they’re happy with that.
We’re out of the ordinary by demanding a more personal experience from our music, and we’re of a particular mind-set that we’re prepared to spend all our spare time in side-street independant record stores searching out obscure bootlegs, and in tiny sweatbox venues watching all but unknown bands. Which are activities the majority of the general public might find a bit odd.
Mmm, maybe, maybe. My vision might be clouded by the fact that most of my acquaintances have music tastes fairly similar to my own.
I’m always surprised when I mention really not at all obscure bands like The Shins, Interpol, etc. and people say ‘I think I’ve heard the name.’
…?
who wants to play the Corn Exchange anyway?
oh Dylan why must you provide me with such perfect fodder to make arguments?!? I swear I adore you but I always end up shouting at you over here. “a more personal experience” is not what Matthew was talking about with his point on pop music. Many fan have a very personal experience with Bloc Party or U2 even. It’s only music snobs, i.e. obscurists who would claim that spending time with “grass roots” music in small venues is inherently more personal, and by thatyou can only mean better , just admit it.
In a competitive field of knowledge the only defensible positions are expertise (obscurist) and dillentante (triviaist), to get academic. And both those positions do very much take a moral stand on knowledge no matter how much they protest. To be able to acquire expertise even in a limited field of knowledge requires surplus time, money, and intellectual resources most likely found in the upper classes. :p
Sorry, it had to be said, xoxox
“To be able to acquire expertise even in a limited field of knowledge requires surplus time, money, and intellectual resources most likely found in the upper classes.”
…No…if you like something, you spend as much time as possible on it, and you can’t help but to acquire related knowledge. It’s a very un-classy affair.
Also, I think the original point was how easy it is to get drawn into the chasm of increasingly obscure and unheard of music, when really popular music can be equally good.
I no longer have any idea of what point I was trying to make. Excellent bamboozlement skills, everyone.
Me I just love music and don’t want to analyse the fuck out of it.
There is nothing wrong with the mainstream without it we wouldn’t have had Motown or any of the Wall of Sound.
I’ve spent long enough in northern soul circles with guys going on about how their really expensive and rare Bobby Reed single on Shrine is brilliant, when really they know as well as i do, that it is nowhere near as good as say Come See About Me or Heatwave but due to it’s rarity value they have this smug elitist attitude.
I’m not saying that anybody here is trying to be elitist but there is always a danger of being perceived as such when discussions such as this arise.
Mathew, why the fuck are you not listening to at least the first 2 Mary Chain albums on at least a weekly basis?
Drew – concise, and with examples. I like it.
I never said I didn’t personally like it better, I do.
But the fact that it’s not for everyone is at the very heart of my point, and I respect that.
Oh, and I’m not upper class! I’m working class, leftish, my credit card’s maxed out and I’m skint til payday!
So :p right back atchya!
Heheh!
It’s not a question of class actually, I was just saying that people have a finite amount of leisure time and, as Voldermania says, depending on what you choose to spend it on you end up acquiring a certain depth of knowledge – no judgments on quality or value implied.
I was also saying – a point which has been bypassed in the comments a little – that I now genuinely do not know who the current Bloc Party or Maximo Park are. It’s funny that I have managed to move away from the mainstream so much that I don’t even know what it is.
The cinema equivalent would presumably be being so into small, alternative film makers that you missed the fact that Star Trek came out this Spring.
I remember reading an interview with Bruce Springsteen once and the interviewer was trying to get him to say something mean or dismissive about some flavor-of-the-month group that was popular at the time. I think it might have been New Kids on the Block or some such. And Springsteen’s response was very wise I thought. He just sort of shrugged and said, hey, these guys make people happy, so what’s to criticize? That’s pretty much my view as well.
I don’t happen to enjoy most of the music on the charts, but that’s just down to personal taste. I have a good old friend who is nearly as much of a music obsessive as I am, but it just so happens that his obsession is with America (A Horse With No Name, etc.), Seals & Crofts, and England Dan & John Ford Coley. But who am I to criticize? I mean, it doesn’t stop me from busting his balls every chance I get, but still… It’s not like he lacks “sophistication.” He just has no taste whatsoever.
there is a massive amount of music snobbery on this site.
plus dylan – your comment about us lot being different because we want to have a more “personal experience”….you sound like an idiot and a snob. music is really fucking simple, you either get it or you don’t. whats so wrong with just fucking opening your ears and listening for once and saying its good or its not good? it’s comments like that that actually make me want to not speak to you about music cause you think your opinion is more valuable than somebody who just likes to have music on and listen and enjoy. and you know what, somebody like my wife who doesn’t go to that many “sweatbox” shows, who listens to music simply cause she enjoys it and cause it makes her happy – well i’d take her opinion and attitude to music over yours anyday of the week. i couldn’t give a fuck if somebody knows every single second of everything ever released by tom waits, if his music is good then its good and their knowledge is so unimportant to me. this whole thread has really disappointed me. i am disappointed.
Euan, I just said that I was getting tunnel vision, because I’m getting so focussed on such a narrow area of DIY music that I have actually lost track of what is the equivalent of the Killers in 2009.
People, including Dylan, to be fair to the fatuous and smart-arsed bastard, have been at pains to point out that none of this chat implies better or more meaningful or anything like that. Just that people who listen to lots of music know about more music, the same way people who watch lots of films know of more films, film-makers and actors, and people who are obsessed with cars might actually know or care what engine is in what vehicle.
None of this implies a more worthwhile relationship with the subject at hand, just that some people devote more time to certain things and hence absorb more of them.
You’re absolutely right about the instinctive decision though. I’ve said many times that this whole website is basically ‘I like this’ or ‘I don’t like that’ dressed up in post-hoc rationalisations. I like something or I don’t, and then I try and imagine the reasons why. Certainly the reasons don’t come first – the emotional reaction comes first, and that’s the same for John Peel as it is for you or I as it is for someone who listens to nothing but Radio2 once a week when they make Sunday dinner.
But, honestly mate, I don’t think anyone here is trying to say that an obsessive’s relationship with music is better or worse than a casual fan, just that they end up with different levels of general knowledge, largely based upon the amount of time devoted.
Bollocks.
Is a kid who soupes up his Vauxhall Nova a “snob”? Or is he just looking for a more “personal experience” with his car than someone who drives a grey Mondeo round the M25 every day?
Euan, read what you just wrote then read this.
You’ve missed my point by so fucking far you’re not even in the same solar system.
Sorry the link’s wrong.
Try this.
Come on, what’s wrong with a bit of elitism now and then?
I’m going to work on increasing my elitism level for the future. Ahem.
I can’t even believe I’m wasting my time typing this – I’m better than all of you.
Jesus Euan….can’t say i disagree with much of what you said….but sledgehammer to a nut ha ha
The car thing is just stupid, there is a much better analogy out there……i’m sure
If you were elite enough you’d know what that better analogy was, but you’re clearly not good enough.
yep….maybe i know but don’t want to share
I disagree with every fucking useless word Euan said. I know what I was thinking when I typed the comment Euan responded to, and how I feel in general about this subject.
Do you honestly believe that every single person who buys a CD in Tesco or wherever else feels as passionately about music as you do? Or – for that matter – the rest the people who take time to read this site, listen to the music, leave a comment, or attend a gig at Trampoline or any of the other of the grass-roots nights around?
And my point is that that it is absolutely, resolutely, completely and unalienably fucking fine with me.
Get it yet? Or do I need to get the fucking crayons out?
Yes. Someone can be seriously passionate about some band who’s CD’s you can buy in Tescos, they can go to all that bands gigs in massive stadiums, etc. – it’s the level of accessibility that’s different, not the passion level.
What’s a synonym for ‘passion’, btw? I’m stuck.
Interestingly, I have some crayons sitting by my left elbow right this moment? How’s that for a scary coincidence?
simple answer Dylan….of course they do!!!
and i’ve got some felt-tips if you need them!!!
And some toys if you and Euan can’t get yours back.
do you think it is worth going back to what i really was trying to say?
What was that, Chutters?
well it was a little bit about our (and we’re all guilty of this) perceived elitism we’re know best cos we know the most obscure bands……but mainly my thoughts (and i didn’t voice them that well if at all) was the privileged position, that bloggers are in…….
then i got waylaid by you and Dylan be patronising….tho i’m now past caring if you actually were or not……
We should have a competition to see who can name the most obscure band.
Forming bands on the spot would not be allowed.
Privileged position? Mate, I can’t get permission to film stuff, to interview people, all sorts of things.
We’re in a weird in-between place actually. We get lots of favours which normal fans don’t get, but given that in many ways we are actually equivalent to the press, we still do get treated very much like second class citizens.
Then again, there are a lot of blogs out there, and a lot of shit ones, so I can understand to an extent.
Mate?
i hadn’t put a value on it yet and you come back at me with MATE!!!!
Voldermania – ART FAG! Although they’ve been played on Vic Galloway’s show so they are no longer obscure.
Chutters, I was exaggerating.
Broken Biscuits…..Edinburgh band
Crummy.
Tom – In my defence, a fair amount of Jack Daniels had been consumed at the time of writing.
Matthew – I wasn’t talking about you as such and the post itself was fasincating old chap. But this site is filled with music snobs. As Tom would say – Fact. I’d hold my hand up and say that in the past I’ve been one. Take Shonagh for instance – when I prattle on about music and the nuances of a record blah blah, she always just says it’s either great or its not. And thats as simple as it should be, and very refreshing.
Dylan – My rant – though it seemed aimed at you – was not entirely aimed at you and did indeed drift from the topic slightly,you were just the catalyst. I apologise if I upset you, it was not intentional. I didn’t think anything you said was pointless and my toys are firmly in my pram. Thanks for calling my words “fucking useless” though, appreciate that
Also, I didn’t say you didn’t have shite taste in music – the link was fascinating, thanks – I always knew you had shite taste, you like James after all ;o) JOKE! Anyways, my point had nothing to do with your taste in music, per se, but our collective attitude when talking about how much we care about music. And how that “sets us apart”. Does that make us special?? Being a music know it all means nothing to me, just like being a car know it all or film know it all means nothing. Being passionate about something is a wonderful thing, there’s nothing more special than meeting people with passion in their belly for something. However, when that passion turns to snobbery and being a know it all – as it so often does – the whole thing becomes a bit sickening. And I do tend to read this site and discuss music with people and wonder why can’t it be as simple as “i like it” or “i don’t like it”. When I said I don’t like James, you made me a James mix cd to prove that I did. Why? Cause you couldn’t accept I didn’t like James and that I was wrong.
I love talking about music, I love listening to music and I love being involved in music on every level. This site is great, but I don’t come here to have intellectual debates about the history of music, I come here to find new music that excites me and more often than not I do.
Anyways, apologies again if I upset you.
Ps – where I come from, a kid who soups up is vauxhall nova is known as a car dick. Does that mean we’re music dicks? I guess so.
Yes, that’s what it means. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
5:57!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack Daniels, Euan? And were you wearing chinos at the time? And kissing your biceps? You need to watch what you say around here. I honestly haven’t seen so much of the music snobbery that you refer to, but the booze snobbery is palpable.
Jack Daniels and then up at ridiculous o’clock!! You should be applauded! Whilst Euan’s first comment was a bit… what did Tom say, Sledgehammer, with further validation in his second, i probably agree. plus he called me refreshing!! Thanks Euan!
As much as i love music and spend far too much work time on this site, Tart’s, Ed’s, C&B, bloody hell!!! There is definately a depth of knowledge of music going on around me than i can claim to have myself, and that is fine – as Dylan said, but we need to be careful of the them and us ideology – surely a common interest is a common interest and whether someone know’s every footballer who has graced Hampden’s field since 1834 or not, doesn’t define how much they love to watch football or not…
I guess what i am trying to say is that those of us who are just here to listen to new music and enjoy you lot’s rambling’s shouldn’t apologise for not being the greatest contributor to the subsequent exchange
well said shonagh. refreshing.
Look, it’s not that complicated, and I don’t understand why everyone’s decided to beat me up over it.
All I’ve been trying to say is that if we’re taking the time to read blogs like this and attend tiny gigs from new bands where we don’t know what to expect and so on, that makes us music enthusiasts, and in my opinion that means we have more in common with these guys, for example, than with the majority of the music-listening public.
That’s not to be snobbish or elitist, but I believe that the majority of people use music as pleasing background noise while they get on with other the other activities that make up their lives. And that’s fine, that’s precisely how it should be.
And that’s why the motoring analogy is a good one, because in the same way that most people have some degree of a relationship with music (very few people never listen to any music whatsoever), most people have a relationship with a car.
Warning: There follows some very broad statements.
Generally, people will choose a car they like, that they’re comfortable with, that meets their demands and that they can afford.
In a very similar way, most people choose the majority of their music based on a sound that they’re comfortable with, that makes them feel good (or often experience more specific emotions – such as nostalgia), that’s not too challenging* so they can use it to accompany other activities, and that occasionally offers them a shared experience with a particular peer group, (perhaps a night in the pub, a party at a friend’s house, time alone with a lover, or a stadium show next time their favourite performer passes through town on tour.)
However, having said that most people have some degree of a relationship with a car, a small minority of motorists enjoy taking that relationship with their car to a more advanced level. I mentioned the kids who spend all their time and money modifying their cars, but there are also classic car enthusiasts, amateur racing drivers, off-roaders and so on.
And that’s where you can draw an anology to music enthusiasts such as ourselves, and that’s why I think the car anology is better than comparing ourselves with the model railway enthusiasts I linked to earlier, because even though we have a very similar mindset to the model railway fans, I don’t believe that building model railways is as widespread an activity as driving cars or listening to music.
At no point during my explanations of that opinion have I judged, attempted to judge, or even sought to judge any sector of society. Nor have I mocked, defamed or condescended to anyone.
*When I used the word “challenging”, it was not intended as any reflection the mental acuity of the individual listener, but more to suggest that they may choose to fill their time with other activities than the studied contemplation of the music that’s playing, while it’s playing.
And for trying to express what is really a very simple concept, I’ve been called a snob, an idiot, dishonest, elitist, fatuous, stupid and patronising.
Thanks guys.
Nice.
And to answer Euan’s specific point about
If I may use Euan as a perfect example to illustrate my response; he plays in two bands, promotes a grass-roots music night, writes a music blog, spends a great deal of his time on other music blogs and is a big fan of Sufjan Stevens.
That’s just not the same demographic group as the individual who buys all their CDs from Tesco and goes to see Bon Jovi at Hampden Park.
I’m not suggesting either demographic is inherently better than the other. I’m just indicating that there is a clear distinction there, and that such distinctions are often reflected in the peer groups that people choose to spend their time with.
Seems I missed a good argument… bugger.
I liked Bon Jovi when I was younger Dylan. How do you like them apples?????!!!!
I think the point that may be sticking in the throats is the ‘we exist outside the mainstream of music listeners with our passionate enthusiasm for grass-roots music’
You might, but i don’t. And Matthew’s point to reitterate it, is that by being absorbed by what you call grass roots music, we fail to see the broader picture of what is happening in music now. This is a negative no, and to some degree, may be classed as ignorance as opposed to enthusiasm? You are talking about a difference in genre and classing those who listen to pop and Bon Jovi, and buy from Tescos as casual music listeners, of which there is no evidence whatsoever… some like souped up fiesta’s some like top range beamers, but they are both car enthusiasts…
Dylan Dylan Dylan….
The reason the car thing is pish, is cos that it is more to do with class and status within a group(i could go on but won’t).
compared with
i like my music cos i like my music (regardless of how fucking obscure or mainstream it is)….and has nothing to do with being better than anyone.
Bon Jovi rock….and i still like em now
They were my first gig – i stepped into Ibrox for them…
so are me, you and tom now in the other demographic or what? i’m confused.
i love cars me
No, I was using figurative examples. Instead I could have simply referred to individuals who buy chart CDs from major high street retailers, and listen to mainstream acts who achieve the higher end of gross sales, and my point would have been the same. It would just have been even more boring for you to read.
That’s possibly the most inaccurate and ill concieved statement on this thread so far.
That’s not relevent. I’m sure the model railway enthusiasts have other things in their lives. Friends, family, work, other leisure pursuits; but they’re still model railway enthusiasts.
The fact that you like some mainstream music – as I do, I might add – isn’t actually related to the fact that you’re a grass-roots music enthusiast.
Gordon Ramsay is on record as saying he likes to take his kids to Pizza Express, but the fact that he occasionally goes to a mainstream chain restaurant doesn’t mean that he’s suddenly no longer an ingredients expert, a food enthusiast and an innovative chef.
<blockquoteThe reason the car thing is pish, is cos that it is more to do with class and status within a group.
That’s possibly the most inaccurate and ill concieved statement on this thread so far.
Right i’ll go to the nearest University library and get all the research papers on tribalism and the social construction of identity and shove them up your arse then you might have better understanding of what i’m talking about…
..don’t teach your granny how to suck eggs
You’re cluttering the point with irrelevancies.
My point has nothing to with tribalism or social identity. If you want to refer to sterotypes, then you’ve got working-class kids on council estates who soupe-up Vauxhall Novas, and at the other end of the spectrum you’ve got millionnaires who collect vintage Ferraris and Aston Martins. My point is they’re both motoring enthusiasts, and that fact is all that matters to my argument – the class / tribalism thing is irrelevant to the point I’m trying to make.
Lots of people drive cars. Most people don’t think too much about their car. Some people are obsessive about their car.
Lots of people listen to music. Most people are content to only listen to easily accesible, mainstream music. Some people are inclined to put more effort into actively seeking out grass-roots acts and obscure independent releases.
That’s all.
Still with that last paragraph you are insinuating that mainstream music listeners aren’t enthusiasts – do you get where i am going…?
no he doesn’t – thats why he keeps arguing!
and stop talking about cars! shonagh’s football analogy was far better.
this is fucking pitiful….and i’m ashamed that i’ve been part of this…..sorry!
Dylan if it makes you feel better….You’re right….
but jesus christ you’re so fucking wrong….but i can’t be arse battling your delusions of grandeur any longer.
i’m with tom. i’ve been up since 4am and feel like i’m beating my head against a brick wall. which would be less painful. you win dylan, you’ve tired me into submission.
Yeah of course I do.
And I’m sure there are people out there who absolutely luuuurrrve… a nice Ford Mondeo 1.8 GL.
What I mean is that you don’t have to put a lot of effort into being a Bon Jovi fan – that’s not to pass judgement on the validity or intensity of the experience – but you can buy Bon Jovi CDs at Tesco, you can buy books and magazines about the band in WH Smith, every year you can buy yourself a nice glossy Bon Jovi calendar.
I haven’t seen the Eagleowl EP for sale in Tesco (Unless Bart happens to be in there with his dodgy sports bag), I haven’t seen books and magazines about Cancel The Astronauts in WH Smith, and I’m definitely not buying next year’s Kays Lavelle calendar (Not after seeing Mr. February in this year’s one!)
If you find listening to those bands rewarding, you have to get a little bit ‘enthusiastic’ about it. You can’t submissably sit back and allow the experience to drop into your lap.
Submissively.
Not submissably.
I knew that was wrong.
This “argument” has generated way more heat than light. I like the kinds of music that I like for no reason whatsoever, other than the limbic response I get from listening to it. If I listen to a piece of music and have no emotional response (or a negative emotional response) to it, then I conclude that I don’t like it. Simple as that.
I agree with Dylan, though, that some people are more “sensitive” to–and react with greater emotional intensity to–musical sound than others. Clinical studies have confirmed that some people’s neuronal pathways are organized in a way that makes them more adept than others at perceiving and anticipating harmonic balance. Some people have “perfect pitch,” but others don’t. Some Alzheimer’s patients retrieve lost memories when they hear certain types of music; others don’t. I sit at the computer trolling myspace for hours at a time trying to discover bands whose music gives me a sense of emotional or physiological exaltation. My wife, who loves music and has very good taste in music, has no inclination to do this.
So in sum: Matthew is myopic. Dylan is elitist. Tom’s a Socialist. Euan’s a drunk. Shongah’s adorable. And C&B has alzheimers. Did I leave anyone out? Ok then, moving on? xoxo
which, C&B shows that though your wife does not delve into music the way you do, she is enthusiastic about music nonetheless. I think tom, shonagh and i have been saying that dylan is suggesting otherwise and every comment he makes to defend himself makes it all so much worse. everyone agrees that there are those who get more involved in music, but why does that make them more enthusiastic? I know Dylan and Shonagh well. D may go to more shows, may know more about music history, and may spend more time immersing himself in “grass roots” bands etc but I would argue that Shonagh is as enthusiastic and as passionate as he is.
can you all stop now. please. the fact is if you like music then fine. if you dont, fine. if you like music to the point that you immerse yourself in everything you can find then thats fine too. noone is better or worse and this whole debate has been unequivocally pointless.
Maybe to change the subject or just the fact that im very excited but a few weeks ago i bought a vintage stereo (turntable, amp and spekers) and today after a bit f perseverence i got it all working.
It sounds ace- I am now having to extend my record collection…
Does anyone have any suggestions? (no mainstream please, thats below me!!!! HA. kidding.)
how about this http://www.roughtrade.com/site/shop_detail.lasso?search_type=sku&sku=312156
or this http://www.roughtrade.com/site/shop_detail.lasso?search_type=sku&sku=312654
or this http://www.roughtrade.com/site/shop_detail.lasso?search_type=sku&sku=314205
you better check with Dylan to make sure that you’ve put enough effort and dedication in, to buy any of these
I’m not worthy. I’ll just leav it and go to HMV on saturday.
nah great suggestions, its so tempting to go on that website and buy everything and put it on the credit card, which is dangerous as it doest really feel like your actually spending any money.
Please keep suggestions coming, im struggling to think about what to buy as im still stuck with the delerium of my excitement about the stereo.
Do you know when the we were promised jetpacks album cmes out? It better be on vinyll or ill be gutted.
as i just kicked my CD player in the face and have dedicated myself to vinyll only, or obvioulsy music on the computer.
dunno…but i was really surprised that i liked the single so much as i’d seen them a few times and was never that impressed!!!
For the record, I agree with Dylan for the most part here. Dylan, when I called you fatuous earlier it was to lighten the atmosphere after Euan’s crazy over-reaction to a point no-one was trying to make, not intended to actually be aimed at you.
Bon Jovi and Vauxhall Novas are irrelevant to any of this. How much someone loves music is also irrelevant to this.
Basically, we all only have a certain amount of time, money or energy to devote to our leisure. Most of us spread this quite thinly across a number of activities – socialising, reading, watching telly, going to the pictures, whatever it is.
Some people devote a disproportionate amount of time to certain things about which they are very enthusiastic. This tends to bring a higher level of specific knowledge compared to people who devote a smaller proportion of their time and attention, and it can also lead to you over-estimating its importance in a wider sense and developing a degree of tunnel vision, hence the title of the post.
But neither I nor Dylan was trying to make the argument that this makes the relationship better nor that people who devote less energy to a particular pursuit ‘enjoy it less’ or interact with stuff of a lesser value.
Michael is right though, this whole argument has been fucking pointless. Chutters and Euan have been enthusiastically missing the point all day and have been hurtfully slagging someone off for an opinion which exists only inside their own heads, not Dylan’s.
indeed. let that be the end of it. people can be quite mean soetimes in this internet world.
also we are promised jetpacks are extremely talented and i cannot wait for thier debut album.
I do not like the Jetpacks. I’m too emotionally deep for them.
i think you meant to say emotionally stunted matthew.
I listen to lots of grass roots music, so I am deeper than other people, Michael, I thought you understood this.
yes my ex didnt listen to grassroots music. thats why i binned her and reported her to the appropriate authorities.
when i meet a person now they have to pass my ‘grassroots test’ or give me that special look that only we special people know. dylan gave me that look. or maybe he was just drunk.
Okay, WTF? I’m not getting this Dylan-bashing at all. Sounds a bit defensive, frankly, as if people are simply determined to take offense, with or without cause. Unfriendly-like.
i dont either im hoping its just friendly banter that has got its tone all mixed up.obviously nothing offensive was said by dylan in the first place so FUCK it im off to dance to some electro.
I’m not into bashing anyone and i don’t think anyone else is either. In my opinion dylan didnt say anything offensive, so i think its all just banter!
I’m sure everyne will be in the pub/gig and have a laugh about it…
no-one, well i certainly don’t, want to be part of a personal attack on anyone. J7ust silly and fun internet jousting.
read all the comments….don’t just take random comments and use them…..heres one
Do you honestly believe that every single person who buys a CD in Tesco or wherever else feels as passionately about music as you do? Or – for that matter – the rest the people who take time to read this site, listen to the music, leave a comment, or attend a gig at Trampoline or any of the other of the grass-roots nights around?
my mother may have bought the first Nora Jones CD from a supermarket, and she fucking loves it…..i hate it…..doesn’t mean her passion for it is any less!! or i’m i missing the point made?
the whole thing went up an alleyway and took a dump….and you know….what….you can all cuddle Dylan…and yes WTF
it was totally all just banter. i apologised to dylan openly on this site, by e-mail and by text for my drunk rant last night. today was pretty fuckin light hearted if you ask me. if i upset dylan in any way then i’ll just buy him 2 ciders instead of 1 next time we’re out. i’d be surprised if he took me seriously. and if he did, i would hope he would just give me a buzz and speak to me about it like i have him in the past.
dylan hasnt made a comment for a wee while on this issue and i think that probably because its gotten a bit silly. What i think was mean by the initial post was that sometimes it is difficult to talk to other people about music when they are not into the same things as y ou, just the same as it is with any other thing…
c&b – i’m not bashing dylan. once again, i reiterate, none of my rant was about dylan’s attitude per se – well apart from when i was drunk, but in my defence he is a know it all and never thinks he’s wrong!
D, you know it’s true!i’m not bashing him though, he’s a great friend. so anyone who thinks i’m having a go at him can go fuck themselves to be perfectly honest.
I’ve read all the comments, and all the ones with a nasty personal bite came from people other than Dylan.
As for the paragraph you quote, what exactly do you find offensive? Is it untrue? Excessively judgmental? What? Does the fact that your mother loves Norah Jones’ first CD make her as passionate about music as John Peel? Maybe you’ll answer yes, but I’m not sure you’d be right.
Anyway, it just seems like people are making a huge effort to extract offense from what was really a pretty innocuous sentiment.
Euan, my comment crossed yours, I was responding to Chutters. Just seemed like it was getting a bit grim there. I don’t know any of you personally and so I guess I misjudged, but the tone of the exchange seemed a bit different from what I usually see hereabouts. The limits of internet communication.
this for me was banter between friends. friends who were drinking together on friday night. friends who agreed to put on a show for dylan despite not really loving the music simply because he is a friend and he was stuck. friends who never fail to have a laugh together, usually at each others expense.
the people who have blown this out of proportion are those who have waded in acusing us of being hurtful, mean etc. if this had been done down the pub it would have been a really good chat and ultimately ended with another round and a laugh. text messages, e-mails and blogs never convey emotion well.
Fair enough. My apologies for jumping to conclusions.
no worries at all. if matthew really thinks i’d be deliberately mean to dylan, or anyone for that matter, then a)it’s rich coming from him and b) he’s enthusiastically misunderstanding me and my intentions. i hope others who don’t know me don’t jump to such misunderstood conclusions.
if me, chutters, tart and shonagh missed dylans point then i’m sorry and i’m certainly sorry if he or anyone else took offense to something i thought was quite interesting to be honest.
anyways, probably should end this now and get back to not posting.
This comment is aimed at Chutters, rather than any of the stuff inbetween.
Dylan’s examples were bad and they’ve distracted you from the point I am pretty sure he was trying to make (I may be wrong though).
I am a less enthusiastic gardener than my Granddad, for example. Not to say that I don’t get the same pleasure from my garden, nor that I have shitter plants, nor that anyone is superior to anyone else.
He is just a more enthusiastic gardener because he devotes more time to it – meaning it’s higher on his personal list of priorities than it is mine.
What else does ‘more enthusiastic’ mean? Would you rather I used ‘dedicated’? Passionate seems not to be allowed either.
So you are (presumably) more enthusiastic about music than your Mum, as evidenced by the fact that you spend more of your time and energy on it than she does, just as my Grandfather is a more enthusiastic gardener than I am.
That doesn’t, of course, mean that you enjoy it more or anything like that, nor that anyone’s taste is better than anyone else’s.
Where I think Dylan muddied the waters was with his examples, which weren’t that well chosen simply because they were cliches and caused a few knee-jerk reactions. I’m sure there are casual music fans in Edinburgh who love eagleowl and Meursault because they happen to be mates with some of us and we take them to gigs, but for the most part people who devote less energy to something will end up with the stuff that is the most readily available.
In this case, someone who devotes less time to music is more likely to buy whatever happens to be on the radio or in the supermarket or wherever they happen to shop. In the case of gardening it means I am most likely to get my plants from B&Q or somewhere like that, although of course these are generalisations and are clearly not always true.
For the vast majority of people it takes more work to actually find out about small bands and a lot of people don’t have that time to put in. That’s one reason blogs are good actually, as it makes obscure music easier to find for people who don’t have the inclination to spend hours scouring MySpace, as C&B does.
That doesn’t diminish their relationship with the stuff they do love, any more than the fact that I don’t spend that much time on it implies that I enjoy my garden less than my Granddad. But it does mean they are less of a music enthusiast (not a lesser person or anything) because if it doesn’t then what does being a ‘music enthusiast’ actually mean, if not that you devote more time and energy to it than a normal person?
It’s like me and Shonagh – in person, we bicker like children – but it’s always, always, always a great laugh. By e-mail we actually fight and take offense at what is being said – we don’t fall out, but we seriousl argue! And this whole post has become the perfect example of why discussions should be saved for the pub or for live situations.
Euan, I just thought the tone was a bit mean and, whatever you and Chutters intended, that it seemed to be hurting Dylan’s feelings, that’s all. As C&B says, it can be hard to tell on the internet, but it seemed a bit much to me, so I thought I’d stand up for the guy, particularly as a lot of people seemed pretty determined to misinterpret what he was saying.
If I was misreading, then sorry.
Yes you were misreading. I apologised for my drunken harshness to Dylan by e-mail, text and on this site.
Oh dear… first, as an outsider, I’ve steered clear of as much of this as I could, knowing you boys would sort yourselves out. But I did sound in early on so I feel the need to finish up.
Secondly, I think this place has been well established to be space wherein we can disagree with one another without it being about the person and with it being just about the ideas. So, I will stick to my argument that I think, yes, there are a lot of euphemisms being tossed about in order to mask that what is really being claimed. And that is that some forms of music are more indicative of a deeper understanding, a closer relationship, a better enjoyment of better music than others. (And that is an accusation, but not of the character of the person, for fucks sake! but of the nature of the argument only) So, when this thread began with the terms “passive relationship” versus a “personal experience” with “grass roots” music that is difficult to access, I cried foul.
Now, as it’s transpired, the argument has been redefined and clarified and defended to NOT be an argument about how obscure music is inherently better and it’s enthusiasts more noble. Yes, I hear you. But if I were in the position of really believing that it was and we were, would I admit to it? No. I’d deny and I’d use euphemisms and I’d steer the conversation around to say that of course everyone’s choice in what to listen to is just that, a plain and simple choice and there’s no judgment here at all. So, ok.
I’m sorry that I hold in my heart of hearts the suspicion that some of you do actually feel that obscure music is good and noble and better. I doubt that anyone will disavow me of that belief. And some conversations will elicit a knee-jerk reaction in me, as a pop music lover and as a crazy, working-class socialist/Marxist who sees everything in life as a statement on class struggle. That’s who I am right now, that’s my limitations, I try to at least be civil knowing that about myself.
So if I’ve shoved my tits too far into your face and offended you inordinately (I mean some offensiveness is par for the course here) then I do apologize. I adore you all, even if I hold deep, dark suspicions about your commitment to the class struggle and eventual overthrow of the State. But I won’t apologize for holding my opinions. And I do hope you’ll not ask me to.
The comment I made before this was completely in jest… I’ll come back later when we’re far enough away from this to have a good laugh, xoxo
P.S. Dylan, you know we pick on you because you’re Welsh, right? ( JOKE! but an example of a personal attack of which there were actually very few in the above thread, in my opinion)
Erm, I work for the Government and frankly I’m concerned that the overthrow of the State might play havoc with my pension.
And I don’t care what the proletariat says, Bob Dylan is better than Def Leppard. I can’t prove it, but I feel it to be true.
I don’t even like music but I do like the bollox you lot talk most of the time…..top work chaps.
Oh Mrs Toady I went to see SLF again the other night and despite Jake being Ian Woosnams twin brother they were really up for it, a couple of belting new tunes too.
back the the bollox please…cheers
Is it just me, or is ‘Dylan-bashing’ strating to sound like a euphamism?
Why not?
I think my analogies are fucking great.
You must arrange for an aeroplane to fly overhead towing a huge banner saying “Dylan, I’m Sorry”, only then you will be forgiven.
Well, duh.
You know what’s a euphemism? Your face is a euphemism.
i like all this light hearted banter……it’s so true
If only Dylan wouldn’t keep spoiling it for everyone else.
This is a euphemism.
i’ve sown my lips shut….the Sb,T police came round and spanked my bum and told me to stop straying from the party line…..so here i am all present and correct….please let me back in!!!
obscure is the new black…..
Only if you repeat after me:
Buying Norah Jones albums from Tesco makes the Baby Jesus cry.
ok i’ll try….
Buying Norah Jones albums from Tesco makes the Baby Dylan cry……shite so close
Ha ha ha – very good Chutters, very good indeed.
I’ll have you know that I’m communing with the common man right now by listening to Who’s Cryin’ Now by Journey, and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t bring a tear to the eye. Is it ironic that the next tune on my iTunes library (alphabetically) is Atrocity Exhibition by Joy Division?
I’m so afraid to face the Friday Five tomorrow; I can’t sleep!
Dylan, a plane with a banner saying “Dylan, I am sorry. you are always right. even when you’re wrong” will fly over newhaven tomorrow morning at 8.30am
Dagnabbit, a hectic week at work and I miss all the fun!
If you were at work it means you’ve sold out to the man and are not indie enough for this conversation.
Nice avatar, Cori.
Aw Dylan, you star! I reckon I owe you a fine foaming ale for that. Tomorrow?
Squawk.
Ooh, yes please!
Excellent. We’ll be in Bo’s from 7 if you’d care to join us; otherwise see you at t’gig.
Bo’s at 7.
Excellent.