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	<title>Comments on: Owning Information and Terminating&#160;Debate</title>
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	<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/</link>
	<description>Independent music from Edinburgh, Scotland - with added gin and swearing.</description>
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		<title>By: Will Blogger Delete Your Family? &#171; &#8230;.and everyones a DJ</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-78898</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Blogger Delete Your Family? &#171; &#8230;.and everyones a DJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 00:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-78898</guid>
		<description>[...] I read a very interest post on Song By Toad and supplemented by another tale about how the attitude of major labels views blogs that summed up [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I read a very interest post on Song By Toad and supplemented by another tale about how the attitude of major labels views blogs that summed up [...]</p>
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		<title>By: wayneandwax.com &#187; Platform Politricks</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-77187</link>
		<dc:creator>wayneandwax.com &#187; Platform Politricks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Dec 2010 21:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-77187</guid>
		<description>[...] spectacular instance of platform failure can actually prove instructive. In addition to generating thoughtful takes and helpful hints, a number of afflicted blogs relocated to their own server space and others [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] spectacular instance of platform failure can actually prove instructive. In addition to generating thoughtful takes and helpful hints, a number of afflicted blogs relocated to their own server space and others [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Song by Toad &#8220;Owning Information and Terminating Debate&#8221; &#124; Music Industry Rules</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-76243</link>
		<dc:creator>Song by Toad &#8220;Owning Information and Terminating Debate&#8221; &#124; Music Industry Rules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-76243</guid>
		<description>[...] http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41555 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41555" rel="nofollow">http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41555</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: News in Music Blogs : SFCritic</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-61518</link>
		<dc:creator>News in Music Blogs : SFCritic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 20:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-61518</guid>
		<description>[...] I reported yesterday, the heated battle of music blogs and property rights has been rekindled. Song, by Toad put together a great article discussing the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I reported yesterday, the heated battle of music blogs and property rights has been rekindled. Song, by Toad put together a great article discussing the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ripley</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-42363</link>
		<dc:creator>ripley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-42363</guid>
		<description>Great discussion here. And actually I think discussion is at the heart of a lot of this. What can happen between individual artists, or indie labels, and bloggers (who are sometimes even the same people) is conversation about the music, about what they would prefer and why. It might not always be amicable, even, but still it&#039;s conversation which helps people learn about the social side of the music they make and love. That learning is good in itself, you learn who&#039;s out there, you learn what kind of concerns there are. this is good for everyone, it&#039;s good for music, it&#039;s good for building shared knowledge and deepening individual knowledge, it&#039;s good for society.

No huge corporation is interested in conversation, and they don&#039;t have any concerns beyond profit in the short term. So a system set up to make things easier for them isn&#039;t going to have to do with the social side of music unless they figure a way to profit from the social (i.e. interactive) part, rather than trying to stop the interactive stuff.  Not sure what will make them choose to do that, although bad press and better laws might help.

Unions or organizing, whatever you want to call it, is one way to try to rebalance the battle of individuals &amp; the social, against the big corporations.. If not a union per se, organization by community (creative community, cultural community, whatever) might get some traction, both in terms of public outcry, and since US copyright laws are not supposed to be pure trade policy. 

Another tactic, suggested above, is to have more control over the actual data,  the servers themselves, the, ahem, material component (can I call it the means of production, even if bloggers don&#039;t necessarily see themselves as workers)? that way the battle could actually be about the value of what bloggers do, rather than google &amp; Sony coming to a deal over our heads..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion here. And actually I think discussion is at the heart of a lot of this. What can happen between individual artists, or indie labels, and bloggers (who are sometimes even the same people) is conversation about the music, about what they would prefer and why. It might not always be amicable, even, but still it&#8217;s conversation which helps people learn about the social side of the music they make and love. That learning is good in itself, you learn who&#8217;s out there, you learn what kind of concerns there are. this is good for everyone, it&#8217;s good for music, it&#8217;s good for building shared knowledge and deepening individual knowledge, it&#8217;s good for society.</p>
<p>No huge corporation is interested in conversation, and they don&#8217;t have any concerns beyond profit in the short term. So a system set up to make things easier for them isn&#8217;t going to have to do with the social side of music unless they figure a way to profit from the social (i.e. interactive) part, rather than trying to stop the interactive stuff.  Not sure what will make them choose to do that, although bad press and better laws might help.</p>
<p>Unions or organizing, whatever you want to call it, is one way to try to rebalance the battle of individuals &amp; the social, against the big corporations.. If not a union per se, organization by community (creative community, cultural community, whatever) might get some traction, both in terms of public outcry, and since US copyright laws are not supposed to be pure trade policy. </p>
<p>Another tactic, suggested above, is to have more control over the actual data,  the servers themselves, the, ahem, material component (can I call it the means of production, even if bloggers don&#8217;t necessarily see themselves as workers)? that way the battle could actually be about the value of what bloggers do, rather than google &amp; Sony coming to a deal over our heads..</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-42163</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-42163</guid>
		<description>ARS Technica has a good &#039;behind the scenes&#039; article on the Blogger takedown saga today:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/the-day-the-music-blogs-died-behind-googles-musicblogocide.ars
It&#039;s interesting to note that one blog was targeted for posting &#039;a newly released MP3 from The Twilight Sad which was available on both Stereogum and Pitchfork&#039;. I should imagine the Twilight Sad are an act which has benefited immeasurably from the support of music blogs (not that I&#039;m suggesting the band knew anything about this).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ARS Technica has a good &#8216;behind the scenes&#8217; article on the Blogger takedown saga today:<br />
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/the-day-the-music-blogs-died-behind-googles-musicblogocide.ars" rel="nofollow">http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/the-day-the-music-blogs-died-behind-googles-musicblogocide.ars</a><br />
It&#8217;s interesting to note that one blog was targeted for posting &#8216;a newly released MP3 from The Twilight Sad which was available on both Stereogum and Pitchfork&#8217;. I should imagine the Twilight Sad are an act which has benefited immeasurably from the support of music blogs (not that I&#8217;m suggesting the band knew anything about this).</p>
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		<title>By: Tart</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41662</link>
		<dc:creator>Tart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 04:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-41662</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re re-hosting an MP3 sent from a label, artist, band, manager, or whoever claims that it is approved, throw up a copy of that claim alongside the MP3 file so that when your host shuts you down it is right there in your folder for them to see. That copy should be the entire email, which has the signature of the person giving permission, including their contact information. They are the party to whom questions are sent. But sadly, you are still the person who has to file the counter-notice with Chilling Effects. 

As I&#039;ve said over on the elbo.ws forum. This issue brings to light the contrast, once again, between major and indie labels. Now you see why we choose which to work with, it&#039;s not always about the music ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re re-hosting an MP3 sent from a label, artist, band, manager, or whoever claims that it is approved, throw up a copy of that claim alongside the MP3 file so that when your host shuts you down it is right there in your folder for them to see. That copy should be the entire email, which has the signature of the person giving permission, including their contact information. They are the party to whom questions are sent. But sadly, you are still the person who has to file the counter-notice with Chilling Effects. </p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said over on the elbo.ws forum. This issue brings to light the contrast, once again, between major and indie labels. Now you see why we choose which to work with, it&#8217;s not always about the music <img src='http://songbytoad.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41560</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-41560</guid>
		<description>Reading my last comment back, I&#039;m pretty much stating the bleeding obvious. I&#039;ll stop now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading my last comment back, I&#8217;m pretty much stating the bleeding obvious. I&#8217;ll stop now.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41559</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-41559</guid>
		<description>I can see why the industry would see a blog that gives away whole albums as potentially damaging, and I think even those ardent defenders would have to concede that. I really wasn&#039;t aware such things existed.

Generally speaking, music fans tend to take a chance and buy a new album after becoming familiar with one or two songs. Give them that album and you run the risk of them either not enjoying the rest, or worse, enjoying it and simply not bothering to pay for it.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

I&#039;d love to think that a far-sighted industry might see &#039;singles&#039; as a free promotional item for an album. But then this is the industry that would rather sell us music videos - that staple of 80s TV - than allow them on YouTube.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see why the industry would see a blog that gives away whole albums as potentially damaging, and I think even those ardent defenders would have to concede that. I really wasn&#8217;t aware such things existed.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, music fans tend to take a chance and buy a new album after becoming familiar with one or two songs. Give them that album and you run the risk of them either not enjoying the rest, or worse, enjoying it and simply not bothering to pay for it.</p>
<p>Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to think that a far-sighted industry might see &#8216;singles&#8217; as a free promotional item for an album. But then this is the industry that would rather sell us music videos &#8211; that staple of 80s TV &#8211; than allow them on YouTube.</p>
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		<title>By: Damon</title>
		<link>http://songbytoad.com/2010/02/owning-information-and-terminating-debate/#comment-41555</link>
		<dc:creator>Damon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://songbytoad.com/?p=8437#comment-41555</guid>
		<description>I help run an independent label, so I&#039;m writing from that perspective.

We really don&#039;t have a problem with bloggers writing and sharing individual tracks on a release, as long as they use the &quot;covermount&quot; track we provide to everyone for free, or get permission from us to use another track. We do have a problem with bloggers posting entire albums and we file complaints against them with their hosting service provider. 

We have our own semi-automated system (which I wrote myself) to deal with the actual takedown notices. It&#039;s more expensive to do things this way, but using the automatic systems the IFPI and others have developed comes at a cost in terms of the relationship artists and labels have with the fans. I think the industry organisations like the IFPI and its members the BPI and RIAA are far too heavy-handed with fans and people, like bloggers, who have less traditional roles in the music business. Educating people about the difference between what a normal independent artist earns from their music, and what a major-label-manufactured &quot;act&quot; makes seems like the right approach. Let&#039;s just say that almost of the artists on our label won&#039;t be quitting their day jobs any time soon.

Over the past 15 years, a new generation of music fans has developed in an environment where music is omnipresent and seemingly free. Music is not given the same value that previous generations might have attributed to it, and it is now difficult to explain how those 15 years of &quot;free&quot; were actually paid for by the people who produce music.

Of course there are &quot;bloggers&quot; who produce no original content and share entire releases, often ahead of the official release date. I don&#039;t think these bloggers are motivated by any (or much) genuine love of the music. I think their motivation is similar to that of the pirate/cracker BBS community in the computer software world--prestige and bragging rights--but these bloggers can&#039;t even claim to be particularly clever since ripping a CD is not even remotely as difficult as overcoming copy protection on software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I help run an independent label, so I&#8217;m writing from that perspective.</p>
<p>We really don&#8217;t have a problem with bloggers writing and sharing individual tracks on a release, as long as they use the &#8220;covermount&#8221; track we provide to everyone for free, or get permission from us to use another track. We do have a problem with bloggers posting entire albums and we file complaints against them with their hosting service provider. </p>
<p>We have our own semi-automated system (which I wrote myself) to deal with the actual takedown notices. It&#8217;s more expensive to do things this way, but using the automatic systems the IFPI and others have developed comes at a cost in terms of the relationship artists and labels have with the fans. I think the industry organisations like the IFPI and its members the BPI and RIAA are far too heavy-handed with fans and people, like bloggers, who have less traditional roles in the music business. Educating people about the difference between what a normal independent artist earns from their music, and what a major-label-manufactured &#8220;act&#8221; makes seems like the right approach. Let&#8217;s just say that almost of the artists on our label won&#8217;t be quitting their day jobs any time soon.</p>
<p>Over the past 15 years, a new generation of music fans has developed in an environment where music is omnipresent and seemingly free. Music is not given the same value that previous generations might have attributed to it, and it is now difficult to explain how those 15 years of &#8220;free&#8221; were actually paid for by the people who produce music.</p>
<p>Of course there are &#8220;bloggers&#8221; who produce no original content and share entire releases, often ahead of the official release date. I don&#8217;t think these bloggers are motivated by any (or much) genuine love of the music. I think their motivation is similar to that of the pirate/cracker BBS community in the computer software world&#8211;prestige and bragging rights&#8211;but these bloggers can&#8217;t even claim to be particularly clever since ripping a CD is not even remotely as difficult as overcoming copy protection on software.</p>
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